Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums suspension-chassis-and-brakes/S13 coilover adapters.... groupbuy anyone?
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G-E: (2013-06-05 20:00:15)
Cut the tube as normal, drill out the nail in the bottom, enlarge to 1/2" hole, insert/orient adapter correctly, use screw to draw in fully (and to straighten), weld around top edge
If we do 5 set groupbuy price would be $260 shipped, tested with turbo tubes
michaelp: (2013-06-05 20:04:39)
Interesting idea…but for $260 shipped, and welding still being required…why not just buy Z31 coilovers? lol
DeleriousZ: (2013-06-05 20:11:31)
Huh, interesting idea!
G-E: (2013-06-05 20:15:48)
Welding required either way, this opens the door for a huuuuuuuuuuuuge aftermarket of cheaply attainable coilovers you know that
G-E: (2013-06-05 20:16:27)
Also… moar wheel clearance? Camber adjustment at the hub? etc?
G-E: (2013-06-05 20:33:10)
Actually there's a lot of geometry changes you can do with this, if you rotate the adapter forward or rearward, the whole knuckle will tilt, changing caster and steering slightly
Rotating it forward would move your kingpin back, and the steering arm down, might help on a lowered car with extra caster?
This can be done prior to welding too, using just the retaining screw underneath and a couple of tacks…
Raven: (2013-06-05 20:38:58)
Interesting. Will this fix the problems of swapping s13 front end components? Seems like it would cause geometry problems because the coilovers would not be oriented how they are factory. I know the s13's are designed to be offset but how will that work on the z31? I would love to see these work though If they don't cause any problems and hold up well I'd be seriously considering them.
One question about these adapters vs welding the adapter tube on. Those adapter tubes are Stance, but are all coilovers threaded different? Wouldn't that allow you to simply thread any coils in, not just Stance? If not then these adapters do sound nice.
jaqattack02: (2013-06-05 20:42:03)
I think the geometry problems come from the S13 LCAs and tension rods. With this all of that would still be Z31. The coilover assembly itself would be the only S13 part and I don't think running it in a Z31 would hurt anything on that.
Z-31Turbo: (2013-06-05 20:44:11)
Nice!
That's a great idea, best way to have correct camber correction up front IMO.
Great price, there is market for such things.
G-E: (2013-06-05 20:50:10)
ACTUALLY he problem with swapping in S-car stuff is that the steering arm is integrated into the hub, you have no bumpsteer correction or alternative steering ratio parts available, second is the kicker, the location of the kingpin.... S13 kingpin is in line with the steering axis, the z31 is offset towards the front of the car, a difference magnified with the angle of the strut, giving a Z much greater caster
Raven: (2013-06-05 20:55:09)
That's true but this will cause the coilovers to sit offset from the original location of the down tubes right? Would push the spindles out creating a wider front end. Could have bonuses. Wouldn't take as high an offset wheel to sit flush and it sits it out enough wheels should clear the coils with no problems. Only thing then I'm still unclear on is that if they do push the spindles outward will everything still bolt correctly with no modification?
G-E: (2013-06-05 21:02:23)
No the track width is determined by the lca, the bottom of the strut merely moves inward, the top still stays in the same place, as does the balljoint, so the steering axis is maintained
Raven: (2013-06-05 21:27:31)
Ok I see it now. Also, you said tested with turbo tubes. What about NA tubes?
michaelp: (2013-06-05 21:34:34)
$600-800 for Cheap S13 coils that arent going to blow in a month…rather you'll get a few months of use. Then $260 for these. Then modified/custom top hats to fit the Z31 properly. In just coilovers and these, you're already at the price of Powertrix/STANCE coils made for the Z31…so why not just buy those and have better coilovers?
G-E: (2013-06-05 21:53:05)
Mike stop trolling, you know you don't need z31 specific top hats, all you need is a drill…
Aside from which, why do you want to limit the market to stance/powertrix? Why do you want people to get the impression that they are the only game in town? What if someone wants to buy megans or fortuneauto or cusco?
If you don't want them, don't look at the thread
G-E: (2013-06-05 21:56:29)
I don't know if the lower diameter of the tube is the same between the two types, it is possible they will fit just fine
If someone has chopped some non-turbo tubes down and can get me measurements to verify, then I can tell you for sure
DeleriousZ: (2013-06-05 22:03:06)
The tubes are the same diameter at the bottom. I know one is larger than the other for the majority of the tube but then necks down at the end to match the other.
Tomakze: (2013-06-05 22:13:43)
I think that is the advantage… you can buy used coils for super cheap sometimes. Of course, used parts come with a risk, but if you are careful, it could work out well.
G-E: (2013-06-05 22:19:00)
Need the inside diameter at the very bottom compared
- EDIT* someone with one of these to shove all the way in
[archived image: inside_dial_caliper_gauge.jpg]
Raven: (2013-06-05 22:44:08)
Yeah I would rather have these and not be limited to brand. Would love to rock some Tein's with the EDFC.
BackRoadED6: (2013-06-06 00:50:20)
great idea, very interested in the product
1sikz: (2013-06-06 01:17:32)
Great idea, but you still need the adapters for the rear coils
DeleriousZ: (2013-06-06 01:37:12)
The diameters at the bottom was determined to be the same, which is why you're able to use the slip on collar style adapters with both n/a and turbo tubes. At least the OD was, maybe the ID differs? Probably not though!
G-E: (2013-06-06 07:53:06)
Well.... to further complicate matters, 87T and 88T have different inner diameters…
Butter: (2013-06-06 11:43:30)
Ha!
(Activates memory banks on how to tear your idea to shreds)
Interesting way to tackle this.
I built something similar when I was trying my 3rd attempt to get the S14 stuff to work on my car. It was an unholy monster with a piece of S14 knuckle attached to the top of the strut tube. I would have needed to brace the hell out of it to make it permanent. IIRC, I also had some bad geometry stuff going on too, I don't remember. I just scrapped it.
In theory, the geo is the same as Z31 because your steering axis is the same. But the thing about these struts is that they move in an arc, and they are affected by the compression of the suspension. You would have to replicate the S-chassis knuckle mounting points to get this right, and you can't because the strut towers are different, and it probably wouldn't be as strong/too heavy.
Pros:
-Can use a bunch of cheap used coilovers
Cons:
-See above. Also, adjusting camber at the knuckle isn't the best way to adjust camber, for similar reasons. (Yes, I'm aware OEM's use this method to do it)
-Still have to weld.
-Costs more than Stance/PT/S9 adapters.
What you should do, is modify this piece to accept a UCF10 upper ball joint. Then guys can convert to double wishbone and be rad. It'll be the next big deal.
G-E: (2013-06-06 12:19:59)
I understand some things would be out of whack if all you did was weld the upper s14 portion onto the z31 spindle, the two holes on the S are offset from each other as are the bolt holes in the strut… BUT on the S they also mount closer to the hub than in the case of my adapter, the holes in mine are not offset, the whole piece is offset, so the angles realign mostly
The struts on the S are more vertical than the Z, you can't change that, but I also don't see how this is a problem, if the offset strut is angled more forward on the inside wheel and angled more outward on the outside wheel in a turn, this shouldn't be significantly more angle than a z31 strut top sees at full lca extension during compression… remember also that in the target market we're dealing with pillowballs not rubber bushings [archived image: smile.png]
PS. I thought of that double wishbone thing a billion years ago before I disappeared, but that involves sourcing a lot of potentially hard to obtain parts, and a lot of cutting and welding all around… kinda the opposite of the intent here where a drill, a hacksaw, and a cheap welder (or muffler shop) can do it [archived image: smile.png]
G-E: (2013-06-06 22:57:46)
So I went back to check, seems 88T tubes are thinner walled than 87T tubes (.100 vs .130)
If this is the same for all 84-87 and 88-89, then I'll make only the 84-87 versions, running two flavours would negate the savings of a batch run
littlebunnyfoofoo: (2013-06-07 03:00:00)
Seriously, these are a silly idea considering that a pair of good quality z31 coilovers are available. There isn't even enough market for one company to carry z31 specific coilovers and we have 2 doing it. Maybe 1% could get the advantage out of these, but then the 1% would know how to do this without spending $260 for some part to use cheap, crappy s13 coilovers.
This is like solving a programming issue on Windows 98 when Windows 7 is available.
G-E: (2013-06-07 05:50:12)
None of this would negate using stance or powertrix coilovers you know that right?
As a point of fact, say you order stance z31 kit from TF, you can ask them for s13 lower brackets instead of sleeves, just like many people have asked for z32 lower rear forks or retained s13 lower bushings instead of the normally supplied z31 version
Or say you picked up a stance s13 kit cheaply and you just ordered z31 top hats for them, it works both ways
michaelp: (2013-06-07 05:52:16)
And asking for the S13 lower brackets instead of sleeves…you'd still have fubar'd geometry. Its best to just do it the good old way or get Z31 coils.
G-E: (2013-06-07 05:55:46)
Like what?
Raven: (2013-06-08 04:18:15)
I would still like to know if the adapter tubes are proprietary or not. Are all coilovers threaded different or could you weld on the adapter tubes and still use any brand of coilovers. I could understand if they were proprietary, from a business stand point, but the threads seems like something that would be fairly standard across all brands.
G-E: (2013-06-08 10:24:31)
Those sleeve adapters from stance/powertrix are custom for our application only at the bottom, at the top they are standard coilover body thread used by other brands like kts/hsd …
When I say bottom, this isn't the first car that uses weld-on adapter sleeves to accept coilovers, most mac-strut cars of the era are in the same boat, rx7's, ae86's, the difference being the original tube diameter they weld to
My s13 adapter is also custom for the application, but again with a little more or less lathing, it would work for all the same vehicles the sleeve adapters would, with the caveat of needing an extra part to attach to the coilover (the s13 bracket with the two holes, the part jason welded directly to his spindle before z31 kits came out)
Careless: (2013-06-08 13:58:57)
Actually, it's more like linux; you'd be able to compile your suspension kernel using whatever coil-over source you want.
Switchback Motions: (2013-06-08 14:31:12)
So why not just use sleeves? Your setup leaves more room for error in orientation where as a sleeve doesn't. The only thing that I can see being an advantage is not having to thread off the spindle to swap coilovers.
Careless: (2013-06-08 14:47:24)
G-E's wording wasn't the best choice. It is not STANDARD thread for some manufacturers. Some manufacturers just chose to use the same thread as one another… so there are like 4 coil overs that you can use with the threaded tubes. Not all coilovers. Which means if you like one brand of coilovers over another or if you like buying cheap sets from throw-away s13's, you could use any you like with this adapter. Sounds like a cool option to me.
I really don't see the issue with this. I've been wondering why no one made a product like this in the passed, and I briefly remember discussing it with G-E.
I think it's a good idea as far as affordable options go. heck, you don't even need to weld the thing in. you can just drill a hole through the side and tap it and shove a heavy duty bolt into the side of it to keep it put. then if you ever feel like welding spindles, you could just remove the adapter and do that if you wish.
TEIN EDFC on a Z31 would be pretty cool, especially for Toronto roads. heh
Tomakze: (2013-06-08 16:07:41)
Haha! Love this. XD
G-E: (2013-06-08 22:59:36)
We both thought of this, and as I remember I said that if I was going to do it, it would have to give us more than the benefit of just swapping a cheap coilover, it needed to have more value
So at the drawing board aka solidworks, I started pondering the implications, offsetting the holes to increase or decrease static camber (which could do some interesting things if the top camber plate was oriented differently), then I thought about the wheel clearance improvement (someone can run higher offset wheels), and that all meshed nicely with my planned control arm/steering project… after I made the thread I realized that rotating it will have other interesting side effects on camber in a turn, except I know only 3 people here could understand how/why, no one else would consider it
So here it is… revision 2 will be for the narrower inner diameter tubes… PM me if you're interested in a set
Raven: (2013-06-09 01:10:55)
I really want to see this in action. Even if you have to mod other parts of the suspension, thats something Z owners should be prepared for anyway. I mean unless we start going low just to hardpark and look cool. I don't see the problem with modifying other aspects of our suspension to retain the correct geometry while reaping the benefits like increased steering angle, etc.
I'm really interested in this setup and would like to run it if it can be proven to not cause issues. Like I said even if other parts need to be modded, whats so hard about modding as necessary and compiling a mod list just like any other upgrade. Once a list is made anyone wanting to go this route can simply see what needs to be done and decide if they would rather go this route or use adapter tubes and forget about it.
G-E: (2013-06-09 08:51:13)
What would be the point of a replacement spindle? Our steering arm is already separate so as to allow custom steering solutions, the high value turbo hubs are rendered unimportant by my bbk, and of course that leaves the strut…
If you've ever seen the design, you'd know the cost of machining a kingpin like ours vs. a 240sx is much higher, the complexity of operations and the length are a big challenge, cheap z31 owners are the biggest challenge of all hahaha
At least this adapter can save you money…
G-E: (2013-06-09 09:07:25)
The mod list outside the obvious cutting & welding, is drilling a new hole pattern in the strut tower to suit the s13 coilover.... you only require "more" if you want to change the geometry, which is possible if you're smart [archived image: smile.png]
I don't have any coilovers to try this with, but I can do the same as the brake kit, and that is offer a lucky sob a chance to get one, I'll sell 1 set welded and painted.... who wants to volunteer who actually has s13 coilovers to try and willing to get a full alignment chart?
Pauls: (2013-06-15 14:46:24)
any updates?
G-E: (2013-06-15 14:55:26)
Monday I'll get an eta, then I'll get things rolling
Black 89Turbo: (2013-06-15 15:10:30)
I had this adapter idea for a while and was just getting this together to make a few Z parts. This was one of the ideas but wayyy cheaper. Need to make one that you can use either FC OR 240 coils. FC coils, just swap top hats, Idk about 240 coils. I was going to price the adapter around $75.00 at most. I think Getting something under $100.00 key. Hind site, maybe something can be done with these. http://www.ebay.com/itm/160947250283
G-E: (2013-06-15 15:18:10)
Cool camber plates, funny enough though, I haven't been able to find M10 press-in studs…
And as I said earlier in the thread, it's not the top hat that's the challenge to fit, whatever pattern yours uses, it's just a matter of drilling -- the bottom on the other hand is specific
UPDATE: I should be picking up some front s13 colovers to take pictures with
DeleriousZ: (2013-06-15 17:55:06)
I think if you search my build thread you'll be able to find a part number for a kawasaki press in stud. I used em for the rear upper mounts on my stance coils.
G-E: (2013-06-17 23:54:52)
Ok I have 2 week production timeline for the GROUP BUY… have 3 people ready to go, would like to have 2 more buy in…
If you haven't yet, mail me to put your name on the list [archived image: smile.png]
Rustspecs13: (2013-06-18 00:35:08)
So no pics of this on a car with coilover and everything installed and an alignment sheet?
~Alex
G-E: (2013-06-18 18:35:51)
Someone is just about to fix their last issue to use the bbk they picked up, so you'll see that working shortly [archived image: smile.png]
Hairyballs: (2013-06-19 14:16:21)
I might have someone who wants a set will let you know.
G-E: (2013-06-19 22:54:39)
Comparison pic… note the non-turbo hub is a little taller and the balljoint location is further in too, hence the plywood
Look at the angles of the bolt holes, then consider the z31's strut top sits more inboard compared to s13
I'll order some stance lower s13 mounts to show how it all fits, but I don't understand why all this panic ?
tatsu: (2013-06-21 01:16:27)
I want a set, but I won't have money till early next month [archived image: frown.png]
slammedfc: (2013-06-21 17:52:01)
People are scared of anything new. Especially if it has potential to work. I thoroughly enjoy this idea and do put them on a car.
If you do run into camber angle, simply drill a few holes or do something like this:
Not for the faint of heart. This guy knows his suspension geo and has the brass ones to put it to use on the track. Apparently the oem strut mount location on this r32 wasn't working out for him so he made this.
[archived image: tower1.jpg]
[archived image: infinitefocus-0883.jpg]
The kit is cut and shut/chop n weld anyway for your tubes. If you run into issues and have to move the strut top it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Could also slot the lower strut mount bracket holes to help line stuff up too. The fact the bracket is slightly offset is prolly the biggest "what if?" issue.
G-E: (2013-06-21 19:58:36)
I'm ordering the stance lower s13 brackets so no one will say "ya but what if I have brand X?" type questions
G-E: (2013-07-04 01:55:29)
Look maa, it's backwards, and still fitz!
adamvann3: (2013-07-04 05:27:47)
Id be interested in seeing the camber specifications after installation. Toss them on your car and take some measurements at max camber with the top plates.
NissanXRMA: (2013-07-04 05:47:01)
If these are tested on a car, and camber measurements are okay, i'd be inclined.
G-E: (2013-07-04 06:46:41)
The static camber can easily be brought into spec, but the camber curve will be different (closer to a 240sx camber curve)
It will be a great complement to the adjustable control arm thingy I'm working on, if I could stop redesigning it everytime I look at it, but that's another story
G-E: (2013-07-04 07:31:19)
Ok I want to start a poll on this, because I realize there was some confusion and some unhealthy e-fighting over this…
How many of you WILL BUY or are INTERESTED (n the very near future), assuming that all the alignment apocalyse scenarios are wrong, and you will have a workable car after?
Just say "I'm in" or something to that effect… gooo!
Careless: (2013-07-04 16:53:16)
im interested because we discussed this before, but i have no money, but i know you personally, so i guess you could say i WOULD be down for a set, but i don't have a functioning z car or a functioning wallet.
tee hee
NissanXRMA: (2013-07-04 17:09:52)
actual measurements. not will be this in bump, or slightly different camber change ect.
G-E: (2013-07-04 18:11:42)
I make statements like "can" and "could" because if you missed it, they can be installed many ways to achieve different results, couple that with a given brand of coilover, with/without camber bolts, with/without camber plates, longitudinally re-oriented camber plates, adjustable tension rods, adjustable control arms, zenki strut tubes on a kouki body, etc…
There's nearly infinite configurations isn't there?
The best I can do is show that in certain orientations, with certain product, the car will not be thrown out of whack
ShamWow: (2013-07-04 18:19:26)
Except that these are not bolt on? Welding still required at the base of the strut.
Careless: (2013-07-04 18:51:25)
if you were to drill a pair of holes into the remaining strut tube and drive a pin into either side of the assembly so that it doesn't turn, and bolt the unit in from the bottom- it would essentially be "bolt in" without welding, and it would also be just as, or even stronger than the OEM solution, which as butters has pointed out before… is nothing but a fat globby weld which he has found to be shitty and at one point almost catastrophic because the tube was all dangly and poorly supported by the weld? i vaguely remember him mentioning that once or twice.
still pretty simple. not sure why all the hate.
Butter: (2013-07-05 12:32:34)
Never said anything like that. The OEM piece is probably press-fit, with a finish weld on the bottom to hold it in place.
Benedict gave me one to convert, and it had been in an accident. Had half the weld torn, but was still intact.
I wish Little K (Nissan suspension engineer) was on here. He could put this to bed.
Hairyballs: (2013-07-05 17:13:56)
I'm interested.
inqui-Z-tor: (2013-07-05 17:54:15)
Truth … he's not likely to visit the forums .. he hardly visits his own (z31club.com)
Although .. Little K .. never worked the Z suspension .. he was assigned to other cars (he was working the GT-R development though)
G-E: (2013-07-05 19:58:38)
Guys, stay on topic please hah
Who else is in for a set? The group-buy will be for 84-87 struts… but if there's enough demand for 88+ we can do a few of those too, so state which one you have too
ShamWow: (2013-07-05 20:23:37)
Oh, you mean how mine thread and unthread at the body, while these would require threading and unthreading two fasteners.
G-E: (2013-07-05 20:32:02)
No he means upgrading from godspeed to kw, not stance to err stance
NissanXRMA: (2013-07-05 20:34:53)
So you could switch between PBM coilovers and D2 coilover bodies?
Rustspecs13: (2013-07-05 23:57:37)
Oh cool. Does that mean you test fit them? Or did you get an alignment?
~Alex
Hairyballs: (2013-07-09 04:15:31)
I sent you payment dead set on these adaptors.
G-E: (2013-08-06 07:36:41)
I have a new version coming, machinist is busy, I didn't forget about you :P
joejoe: (2013-08-19 21:54:44)
Anything new on this? I am very interested, just want to see them mounted on a car.
G-E: (2013-08-19 22:26:38)
Sooooon, the bumpsteer spacers slotted in before them… patience
Showaski39: (2013-08-19 23:41:58)
I'm also dead set on this method. I'm not fond of having half of my $1,000+ coils welded to my front knuckles.
....... but I'm concerned about the camber, and the top hats.
DeleriousZ: (2013-08-20 00:48:08)
you don't weld the coilovers to the knuckles…
G-E: (2013-08-20 00:59:29)
What's the concern? Front s13 coilovers fit on a z31 with one of the bolt holes slotted.. for the rears you can buy an adapter kit from asco I believe, if not, just drill 1 hole
Showaski39: (2013-08-20 22:42:10)
I meant to say spindle, hub or bottom of the Z31 strut housing. You know what I meant
DeleriousZ: (2013-08-20 23:06:39)
You don't weld the coilovers to anything. You weld a sleeve to the knuckles. There is nothing permanent done to the coilover bodies themselves.
Showaski39: (2013-08-20 23:38:24)
I see what you mean, but anyone who already has a set of coilovers installed on their vehicle (unless you own a Z31) never removes their coilover from the sleeve. I think it's sooo tedious to literally unscrew the front coilover from the sleeve each time you need to remove it for repairs, send it out for a replacement, to work on the front end, etc.
G-E: (2013-08-20 23:44:31)
While I'm sure people aren't blowing coilovers regularly, I agree the bolt-on bracket makes it easier to work on the car
Hairyballs: (2013-08-23 17:27:32)
I have a set from GE and it has a lot of camber adjustment it also helps the fact that my cusco's have a slot for camber adjustment to + the top hat.
I have a set just need to find out who to get them re-built by (coilovers)
Careless: (2013-08-23 17:38:46)
wat? you probably don't even have enough room in there to unscrew it all the way. why wouldn't you just unbolt the knuckle and remove the top-mount screws and brake line, and just get if out of the way completely.
Showaski39: (2013-08-24 00:00:02)
because I wouldn't wanna have to bleed my brakes each time I remove any one of the front coils.
G-E: (2013-08-24 00:12:04)
Revision 5 is done, I'll see about picking up mon-tues
Careless: (2013-08-25 19:56:49)
i meant that all that's required is to slide the brake line out of the bracket that they are slotted into on the coilover body. then just hang the caliper using some tough wire (not good practice to hang them from the lines).
have you ever actually removed the front suspension before or changed the brake lines?
reddzx: (2013-08-28 03:48:26)
Cut coat hangers work great for hanging calipers while doing front suspension work
Switchback Motions: (2013-08-28 04:23:10)
Or a piece of rope/shoelace.
G-E: (2013-08-28 07:49:13)
You guys are ruining another quality thread haha
G-E: (2013-09-07 01:06:23)
Your assertion that revisioning is somehow suggesting defective is stupid… I'll list some of the revision counts of my products, it's a natural part of the process
lca+tc rod replacement, currently up to version 7, revision average 4 (not released)
s13 coil adapter, 5 revisions.... version 2 was aborted
offset bumpsteer spacer, 2 versions, 3 revisions on final
wheel studs, 2 revisions for each type
steering knuckle replacement, 3 versions, revision average 2 (not released)
… and there's a few other sketches I haven't followed through with
reddzx: (2013-09-07 03:39:07)
This thread is closed until on vehicle testing data is provided