Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums engine-mechanical-aa/electric water pump?
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Chrisw_2003: (2009-06-29 06:18:48)
I was wondering if anyone uses one? I was talking to a few of the guys at my local autox and alot of them seemed to run them in there cars, being once you turn your car off the water flow stops. While with the electric pump they just flick the switch and the water keeps circulating helping the car cool down faster between laps.
New 2 Z: (2009-06-29 08:50:08)
i was looking at the L series pumps only one bolt will fit. no one makes it for our cars, i'd love one though. maybe look into the SR20 pumps?
comrade_charlie: (2009-06-29 11:39:21)
[quote]New 2 Z wrote:
I was wondering if anyone uses one? I was talking to a few of the guys at my local autox and alot of them seemed to run them in there cars, being once you turn your car off the water flow stops. While with the electric pump they just flick the switch and the water keeps circulating helping the car cool down faster between laps.
i was looking at the L series pumps only one bolt will fit. no one makes it for our cars, i'd love one though. maybe look into the SR20 pumps?[/quote:3468f4nt]
l28 swap time LOL
New 2 Z: (2009-06-29 12:05:46)
[quote]comrade_charlie wrote: [quote=New 2 Z:29gze5ej]
I was wondering if anyone uses one? I was talking to a few of the guys at my local autox and alot of them seemed to run them in there cars, being once you turn your car off the water flow stops. While with the electric pump they just flick the switch and the water keeps circulating helping the car cool down faster between laps.
i was looking at the L series pumps only one bolt will fit. no one makes it for our cars, i'd love one though. maybe look into the SR20 pumps?[/quote:29gze5ej]
l28 swap time LOL[/quote:29gze5ej]
it could work… the L series is just about 2 inchs taller then a RB26, was thinking about it but it's too much work. not to mention they have the worst head flow then any of the Z cars. ever produced.
Careless: (2009-06-29 17:09:24)
So are you guys talking about having a pump attached to the waterpump via a pulley, or directly attached to the waterpump.
Or even more serious, a remanufactured pump that has been turned into an electric one?
Either way, have you guys heard the whine they make? SOOOOO annoying for a street car.
Chrisw_2003: (2009-06-29 17:48:49)
no. just a electric pump that that pumps water throughout the cooling system.
DeleriousZ: (2009-06-29 17:53:23)
Like something you'd stick inline with the rad hose? How would you get the thermostat to stay open once the coolant got past that point?
BLOZ UP: (2009-06-29 17:54:53)
Genius.
nutsaq: (2009-06-29 19:25:45)
how much different is the VG30DE?
There ARE pumps made for those.
aceman: (2009-06-29 19:47:51)
just make a bracket for a 12v motor and pully, and run the water pump by a 12v motor. im sure you could even get trick with it, and put speed control on it.
OK85ZX: (2009-06-29 20:32:58)
[quote]BLOZ UP wrote:
a pump attached to the waterpump via a pulley
Genius.
lmao. the wording just made it sound funny for this situation :P
MachZ: (2009-06-29 21:59:37)
Last I checked the bolt pattern is the same. I'll double check tonight but I'm pretty sure I bolted the DE pump to my 30E.
Careless: (2009-06-30 00:53:11)
[quote]BLOZ UP wrote:
a pump attached to the waterpump via a pulley
Genius.
I meant a motor attached to the waterpump. sorry.
Careless: (2009-06-30 00:54:46)
you would essentially run no thermostat, and just have it circulate at different speeds, is my guess!
Matt89: (2009-06-30 03:40:11)
Yeah i an 99% sure a DE pump shares the same design and bolt pattern as ours. :-)
BLOZ UP: (2009-06-30 15:53:48)
[quote]Careless wrote: [quote=BLOZ UP]
a pump attached to the waterpump via a pulley
Genius.
I meant a motor attached to the waterpump. sorry.
Oh, I know what you meant. It just gave me a brilliant idea…
springerc69: (2009-06-30 17:20:24)
[quote]Careless wrote: [quote=BLOZ UP]
a pump attached to the waterpump via a pulley
Genius.
I meant a motor attached to the waterpump. sorry.
That seems pretty pointless.
How is adding the weight of a 12v motor (not light) to turn the stock pump better than just driving the stock pump off the crank how? I've seen this done on a car at the strip, he didn't run any other pulleys on his engine, just 12v motor bolted to the inner fender, with a long belt to the water pump. Seems like a lot of work for little benefit, but then again who wants to spend $600 on an electric water pump.
https://dev.z31library.com/extras_archive/bde-performance.com/
Side note:
This company also offers a conversion kit for TH40, 4L80E(coming soon), and Powerglide automatic transmissions, so when serious drag guys get tired of killing stock Z transmissions.
https://dev.z31library.com/extras_archive/bde-performance.com/th400.htm
https://dev.z31library.com/extras_archive/bde-performance.com/powerglide.htm
Careless: (2009-06-30 17:40:25)
It isn't about weight. it's about being able to purge the coolant to the radiator, with the rad fans on while in the pits to cool off your engine.
it's the same issue that people have with drag runs where they stop right at the end of the race and coast to the pits with a car that has serious water-movement issues as far as efficiency of the stock pumps.
a friend of mine keeps his revs above idle as he coasts to the pits so that he can have the pump move more water throughout the system until the thermostat closes.... he's learned his lesson from two other engines, and so far no issues using this method.
having a 12v motor and doing it that way would be easier.
BLOZ UP: (2009-06-30 18:06:53)
That's what I thought, that it wasn't really about weight, but getting the pulley off the crank, and keeping the flow of the water constant.
Speaking of flow… does anyone know what RPM the stock water pump flows the best at/is most efficient? Does such a thing exist? I suppose it depends a lot on what fan you have as well…
Rat1314: (2009-07-02 07:16:05)
A thermostat opens when it reaches a certain temperature not from water flow.
DeleriousZ: (2009-07-02 07:20:58)
[quote]Rat1314 wrote:
How would you get the thermostat to stay open once the coolant got past that point?
A thermostat opens when it reaches a certain temperature not from water flow.
That's what I was getting at. Once the coolant got below the thermostat close temperature, the pump would have negligible effect.
Chrisw_2003: (2009-07-02 08:12:39)
yeah but if you had a low temp thermostat, like 150 degree one, that shouldn't be to bad on leaving it open
Rat1314: (2009-07-02 09:54:19)
[quote]DeleriousZ wrote: [quote=Rat1314]
How would you get the thermostat to stay open once the coolant got past that point?
A thermostat opens when it reaches a certain temperature not from water flow.
That's what I was getting at. Once the coolant got below the thermostat close temperature, the pump would have negligible effect.
I know what you mean now, I thought that was a odd comment to come from you but you have a good point. How cool would you want to get the motor anyway? if it's between races getting it too cool might be a bad thing?
OK85ZX: (2009-07-02 16:59:27)
you don't generally use a thermostat with an electric pump, you would use a temp sensor and have the water pump rpm change based on temp.
Tempestas: (2009-07-17 16:03:12)
But you would still want some sort of gutten t-stat or restrictor. Water will not flow the same with it removed and wide open. At least on other engines i have seen this… can't remember how the water flows off the top of my head, but you have 2 paths on one side and 1 on the other of the housing.
DeleriousZ: (2009-07-17 16:10:18)
What about using the lines for the heater core with an electronic valve on one side.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-02 01:23:19)
I found this while considering going to an electric circulatory pump …
http://www.conceptzperformance.com/Cart … r_Type=300
… which is listed for the Z32 300ZX. However, I believe it will work with our cars as well since the blocks (which is where the pumps are located) are virtually identical. I even checked Courtesy Nissan and looked at water pumps for both z31's and z32's --- they look to be the same part. And the mounting bolt patterns for both (mechanical and electric) are the same. As for controlling the pump speed (to maintain temperature as you now can run without a thermostat), the Davies Craig 820 module looks like a winner.
(http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Controlle … tails.aspx)
It can also control your electric fan, which will now be a necessity without the pulley driven water pump.
tacozzz: (2010-11-02 09:43:29)
i got a vg30e and a vg30dett block along with a vg30e water pump....ill check it out tomorrow and post some pics.
and the water pump gaskets are the same according to autozone. but different part numbers for the pumps.
snout and pulley flanges seem to be different
Careless: (2010-11-02 14:04:47)
that wouldn't matter for an electric pump. all that matters is they bolt up.
tacozzz: (2010-11-02 19:27:39)
this is true
shromy: (2010-11-02 22:54:59)
Why shouldnt it? Same gasket means same base mounting. Some variables may be depth of the impeller etc. NM took a second look. I hope someone looks into this. Could be win at a cheaper price.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-03 02:57:31)
Thanks … those pics could prove valuable. The snouts/flanges being different might not matter, as they probably have to size up to different belt locations in space --- as well as different pulley belts. The only fitment issue that might arise is one with the timing belt covers; will the protruding pump body interfere?
shromy: (2010-11-03 11:39:16)
Why not remove the covers all together/ modify them, if the issue arises.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-04 02:51:58)
Of course one could do that with the covers … but the best case would be that it's not necessary. Personally, I wouldn't want to go around with the covers off, should anything get between the belt and a gear. But that's just me.
ZFast88Z: (2010-11-04 02:56:39)
Every electric water pump I have used has burned up within 1 year of purchase.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-04 14:40:33)
For the VG30's, I don't believe there are that many choices out there. I also think the basic pump/motor is the same as the one being sold at MotorSport Auto for the 240 - 280 Z's. It's made by CSR --- not exactly a shabby outfit. I'll also admit that the price for our engine set-up is well over the top, and is really for racers looking for that extra bit of power. But if the car is driven mostly on weekends and good weather --- and you have the $$$$ --- it might just be fun to have as bragging rights.
Also, I have to ask, was there any form of speed control on your pumps to regulate temperature, or did you merely rely on your thermostat? Without using electronic temperature sensing to regulate motor speed (and removing the thermostat), the unit is running at full tilt all the time and may be the cause of early motor failure. The one I pointed to earlier uses pulse-width voltage control to home in on whatever temperature you wish to keep the engine coolant, and the pump will merely idle along (so to speak) to keep it there, thus extending its life significantly. I'm rather surprised MotorSport doesn't even make mention of this.
Careless: (2010-11-04 17:12:41)
the old shop I interned at had a race car that would run on a low PWM setting during the tire warming, and the pump would go full out during staging at the tree. it was a 10 second car, so by no means slow (actually held a world record at the time).
probably why Zfast88 mentioned that most of the pumps he's used burn out within a year. maybe not for prolonged use.
I don't see a reason to run one for a street car… yet. try and tell us how it goes? LOL
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-04 17:27:12)
Running full out on the CSR pump claims 37 GPM. Hell, the faucet on my bathtub with both valves wide open can't fill my tub (~ 45 gallons) anywhere near just 1 minute … and that's flowing like a fireman's hose. So basically full flow is way more than what's needed for street use. Plus, the EWP can cycle up and down in a gradual manner as needed … instead of trying to accelerate the coolant flow in direct proportion as one is trying to accelerate the crank.
ZFast88Z: (2010-11-05 02:51:57)
They don't last for street use. Even when run with a motor controller.
Careless: (2010-11-05 03:05:52)
So what are you waiting for, exactly?
Have you purchased it yet?
Let us know how it goes.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-05 14:37:12)
Calm down over there … I've got 50 things going on all at once here, and that's just on the Z. [archived image: wink.png] Besides, has the fitment issue on the z31 block been fully resolved yet?
I'm definitely going to be installing an electric fan, but I'm torn between the Flex-a-Lite Syclone (2500 CFM) and the SPAL straight blade (2370 CFM). Both are 16 inch fans and can be installed as pushers; however, the Syclone has curved blades, making it quieter, but the SPAL has better customer satisfaction reviews. I will need a pusher, as the EWP will be extending out to about where the OEM fan does, and for reasons I won't get into right now, the electric fan will be radially mounted to the OEM lower fan shroud (perpendicular bolts and spacers for centering), and if I install it as a puller, its motor will bump up against the EWP motor.
Also, since we're on the subject, perhaps you can explain something for me. I know about the upper temperature sensor on the lower intake manifold (driver's side cylinder head?), but what exactly does it do when the coolant reaches its set point? Is it merely a switch (on/off) or is it a thermocouple/thermistor of sorts? And the same goes for the one located at the base of the radiator. (I think that one turns on the auxiliary pusher fan in front of the condenser --- but that's all been removed, for good.)
Oh … before I forget. High kudos for Nissan of McKinney for going the extra mile in getting for me the best price (including shipping) on a Nismo/Euro-spec 300ZX radiator. The gentleman that did all the work was Robert Lacy.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-05 21:07:58)
OK … I just today (minutes ago) removed both front timing belt covers (upper/lower) along with all associated belts and pulleys. (BTW … it looks like if one is to go with an EWP as mentioned earlier, the alternator belt --- using a 90 amp Maxima alternator on the passenger side --- needs to now be 30 to 31 inches in total circumferential length.) Also, from what I can gather, there might be a need for some timing belt cover cutting --- emphasis on might. Looking back and forth between the engine bay and the photos of the EWP pieces on the internet, it just might fit as is. But that overall motor/pump assembly must be pretty small if that's the case.
More to come.
(PS: It was fun getting that crank pulley off with the gear puller.)
michaelp: (2010-11-05 22:36:51)
I used a 32" belt on my NA2T with the waterpump and alt on the pass side, so how would removing the waterpump result in a 31"?
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-06 00:13:41)
It's going to be determined by which alternator you use. I upgraded my engine to the 90 amp Maxima alternator, which incorporated an adapter bracket for it to fit alongside where the stock unit was. How much did this reconfigure the pulley in space? … not sure, exactly. And going to an electric water pump (the CSR direct drive unit as mentioned earlier) eliminates part of the belt loop, shortening it somewhat. Now the belt for the alternator only goes from crank pulley to alternator. So, what I did was loop a piece of string around both pulleys and measure its length. And there's one more issue. To change said belt, one must remove the crank pulley (or risk bending the timing indicator arrow) in order to loop it on, then place the crank pulley back on.
So your best bet in determining the belt length might just be to loop a piece of string around those two pulleys as I mentioned above and see what you get. My 31 inch length was significantly less (~10 inches) than the pulley belt I removed.
OK … I just measured the belt I removed from the alternator/water pump, and it's 41 inches in circumference. I think you might want to re-measure yours.
michaelp: (2010-11-06 00:36:55)
[quote]NewJerseyZ wrote:
I used a 32" belt on my NA2T with the waterpump and alt on the pass side, so how would removing the waterpump result in a 31"?
It's going to be determined by which alternator you use. I upgraded my engine to the 90 amp Maxima alternator, which incorporated an adapter bracket for it to fit alongside where the stock unit was. How much did this reconfigure the pulley in space? … not sure, exactly. And going to an electric water pump (the CSR direct drive unit as mentioned earlier) eliminates part of the belt loop, shortening it somewhat. Now the belt for the alternator only goes from crank pulley to alternator. So, what I did was loop a piece of string around both pulleys and measure its length. And there's one more issue. To change said belt, one must remove the crank pulley (or risk bending the timing indicator arrow) in order to loop it on, then place the crank pulley back on.
So your best bet in determining the belt length might just be to loop a piece of string around those two pulleys as I mentioned above and see what you get. My 31 inch length was significantly less (~10 inches) than the pulley belt I removed.
OK … I just measured the belt I removed from the alternator/water pump, and it's 41 inches in circumference. I think you might want to re-measure yours.
I know what size belt I bought, so maybe you should remeasure yours. This is on a passenger-side mounted alternator, for a turbo car.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-06 00:51:53)
Something's amiss here … my belt (using the stock water pump and Maxima alternator) measures 41 inches --- I measured it twice. The string going around just the crank pulley and Maxima alternator is ~31 inches. That was very carefully measured, as it will be my new belt's length. Both these measurements make sense, as to which is smaller. But this can be easily resolved, as you can simply measure the length of string around just your alternator and crank pulleys --- you needn't be that accurate, nor will you need to remove anything. A rough estimate is fine.
michaelp: (2010-11-06 00:58:15)
WELL, I measured with a string once to get my belt originall and measured 38", but when I got a 38" belt it was way too large. I then got a 32" belt and it fit with the tensioner nearly fully tightened :-
ZFast88Z: (2010-11-06 01:00:47)
Stock belt for water pump, alternator and crank pulley is 41 inches.
michaelp: (2010-11-06 01:03:55)
It is possible I screwed up in remembering what I used, it was 2+ years ago I bought the belt…
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-06 03:21:55)
Now all I have to do is find a 4-rib 14mm wide Micro-V belt ~30 inches (770mm) in total length.
Any ideas out there? … I've searched for numbers close to this and haven't had any hits.
michaelp: (2010-11-06 03:40:10)
I'm still positive I have a 32" belt.
The ribbed belt is 41". 84-86 NAs use 37" belts. If you run the V-belt setup with a passenger side mounted alternator, you need a shorter belt. I used 32", I just went out and remeasured it.
michaelp: (2010-11-06 03:51:13)
btw, FWIW my tensioner is pretty loose in its ~3" of travel to use the 32" belt, you could get it to the more normal position with a 34 or so I'm sure.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-06 04:26:15)
This is weird, as I'm positive of my measurements as well. And Zfast88Z said OEM belts are 41 inches, which is what I got off my belt for the crank, alternator and water pump combination. I have a turbo (passenger side alternator) and I think you do as well. The only difference might be the alternators, but 10 inches less in length ???? No way. OK … try measuring a hypothetical belt going from just your crank to the alternator and back --- a simple 2-pulley loop. Use a string and see what you come up with. I can't imagine it being much less than 31 inches.
PS: Are you using a stock crank pulley, or an underdrive unit?
michaelp: (2010-11-06 04:31:03)
[quote]NewJerseyZ wrote:
I'm still positive I have a 32" belt.
The ribbed belt is 41". 84-86 NAs use 37" belts. If you run the V-belt setup with a passenger side mounted alternator, you need a shorter belt. I used 32", I just went out and remeasured it.
This is weird, as I'm positive of my measurements as well. And Zfast88Z
said OEM belts are 41 inches, which is what I got off my belt for the crank, alternator and water pump combination. I have a turbo (passenger side alternator) and I think you do as well. The only difference might be the alternators, but 10 inches less in length ???? No way. OK … try measuring a hypothetical belt going from just your crank to the alternator and back --- a simple 2-pulley loop. Use a string and see what you come up with. I can't imagine it being much less than 31 inches.
PS: Are you using a stock crank pulley, or an underdrive unit?
IDK, I have a V-belt setup from a NA though, with the alt mounted on the passenger side. Like I said, its possible my measurements came out wrong. The whole reason I had to measure and get a custom belt is because there wasn't one I could just order for the Z31 when using the v-belts and the alt on the passenger side. Ribbed belts have larger pulleys where the belt rides on though, which im sure makes up a few inches on its own.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-06 04:42:05)
OK then … you're not using the OEM belt which is defined as Micro-V, which is not a standard V-belt. You are using a V-belt. The OEM part for my car for that belt is 41 inches (1028mm). Courtesy Nissan confirms this. Pulley size and exact location may very well play a role as well in all this.
Well, all I can say is that if you do use an electric water pump, have a Maxima alternator and stock crank pulley, you'll need a Micro-V 4-rib belt about 30 to 31 inches in length. Anything other than that will have to be measured by the user. [archived image: smile.png]
michaelp: (2010-11-06 04:44:07)
- super I'll triple check my belt setup later to see for sure. I do remember my string ended up being the wrong size even though it fit around the pulleys perfectly, now that I think back more it may be that the string measured 31" but the belt size I needed was closer to 35 or 36, it was off by quite a few inches which didn't make sense to me at the time.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-06 17:06:00)
You're absolutely correct … there should not be that much of a difference. From the inner most portion of the belt to the outer most, the length difference is trivial. If you ran a belt around the entire Earth and compared its length to a similar one that was 1 foot above the surface (all the way around the planet), the difference would be ..... ~ 6 feet. For the alternator belt (assuming 3/16 inch total cross sectional height), we're talking ~ 1.2 inches.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-11-27 15:03:51)
OK … something of an update:
I spoke (e-mailed) with Brett Dempsey at BDE, who said that his pumps are now coming with modified vanes (curved) that are more efficient than straight ones. The motor is a brushed type from CSR that (according to technicians at CSR) should NOT be run with reduced voltage to regulate their speed. So my initial mention of using a variable voltage controller is a no-no. However, the controller form DC Control will be fine, as it uses PWM control, and is fine with brushed motors (agreed with by CSR as well). The model 50P35 seems like the best choice, since it will not only run the EWP, but electric fan as well (which will likely now be a necessity).
Also, I sized up an actual 31 inch 4-ribbed belt from the crank pulley to my Maxima 90 amp alternator (passenger side). It's the correct size --- but it might also work up to a full 32 inch belt as well due to the swing allowed from the pulley mount.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-12-12 19:06:41)
Further update ....
For those who are still interested in what is needed to go this route, let me say 2 things:
1) The electric CSR water pump modified by BDE will fit the VG30ET engine block. The adapter plate does seat properly against the water inlet/outlet channels with no interference from the pump vanes or body housing. However, this will only occur if the thermostat housing body (2 piece assembly) is raised 0.25 inches (1/4 inch) up from its original mounting location. Otherwise, it will obstruct the mounting adapter plate of the pump. This actually is easily accomplished in my second issue.
2) The thermostat housing assembly must be raised along its 2 (two) mounting bolts 0.25 inches. Loosening those two bolts enough to lift the housing (without actually removing them) will then allow the pump's adapter plate to bolt onto the engine block. The remaining thing to now do is have constructed a spacer plate (aluminum is perfect) to the outline of the thermostat housing gasket (this is not the thermostat gasket). I had a local machine shop fabricate one for me. But this piece has one little caveat, and that is that both mounting surfaces are not exactly parallel. Lifting the housing up 0.25 inches actually arcs the assembly somewhat due to it having a long tube connected to the back of it, which runs to the car's heater core. Don't worry, there is enough give in the tube to allow for such small movement. From measuring to where it's anchored near the engine's rear, I calculated a difference of ~1 degree offset between the surfaces. This may sound trivial, but trust me, I had this all done and everything mounts up flush --- a very OEM looking job.
The housing bolts must now be replaced with longer ones to allow for the spacer's thickness. And yes, there is ample space in the housing's bolt holes to still get a good tight assembly with straight bolts. The difference in the housing's location is so small that the hose connecting the thermostat's inlet will still connect to the metal suction tube that runs to the lower radiator hose. Also, one might have to cut a small amount off the recirculation hose due to the housing sitting a bit closer to the manifold outlet casting (the piece that contains the "radiator" cap).
I'll be glad to answer any questions anyone might have.
aceman: (2010-12-13 13:59:35)
I don't know why you would rather spend all that money when you can get an off the shelf kit proven to work. the BDE kit is 600+
http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/63750/10002/-1
NewJerseyZ: (2010-12-13 14:59:37)
Well, basically the style you link to is not truly a way of eliminating all of the parasitic inefficiencies of a belt driven pump. It's merely an electric motor used to drive a --- belt driven pump. The BDE pump is a direct drive unit; no belts what-so-ever.
reddzx: (2010-12-13 16:45:18)
Please post pictures of this modification
NewJerseyZ: (2010-12-13 17:05:24)
You're going to love this answer … I can't (at this time), otherwise I most certainly would have.
But basically, if it's the spacer you're questioning, it is shaped from the gasket between the thermostat housing to engine block. Here is a link to where exactly it is used. (Part 11072 --- near diagram bottom.) I believe that after the indicated date, it was attached by merely using gasket sealant directly --- no gasket. But if you go with using the spacer, you will need two (2) of these gaskets (above and below), regardless of model year.
The gasket shape is very simple, a rectangular coolant hole with two outer holes to pass through the housing mounting bolts. It can be made from standard 1/4 inch thick flat aluminum stock, so starting material is very easy to come by and should be common to fabricators. They can then cut the material to conform to the gasket. Their only issue will be the 1 degree downward slant toward the engine block's rear; simply have it made/slant perpendicular to the line drawn going through both bolt holes. (No more than 1 degree is needed … but it's still advisable to have this slant.) My local fabricator actually had little issue with the 1 degree slant.
aceman: (2010-12-13 17:17:19)
please explain how the $80 off the shelf kit takes more hp to turn than the expensive BDE kit. unless you have both setup's on the same vehicle for back to back testing of both power and cooling capability you can not justify the extra $500+
if you are doing it just to do it, you picked the wrong car to build.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-12-13 17:29:25)
There's actually another reason, or two.
1) The Moroso is intended/indicated for racing use, not street use, so I'm not sure exactly how that will hold up for a daily/occasional driver. The CSR is intended for daily use, and depending on how one controls it (DC-controller-wise) it can be varied with demand.
2) Also, I believe the Moroso uses one's existing pump with a pulley attached to the motor instead of the crank. The BDE pump is directly driven and modified with better vanes (now curved) than the stock pump which increases efficiency and flow. How much, I don't know. But one can see that it is very well machined.
Now, you are correct --- only a good A/B comparison on the Dyno (3 pulls each) will show whether there really is that much of a difference or not, but reason number 1 is my real concern. Of course, the final decision it totally up to the end user --- isn't it always?
aceman: (2010-12-13 19:56:58)
another thing to consider is the high failure rate of those CSR motors, well at least the old style are known for dying
Careless: (2010-12-13 23:21:53)
ok, so … any pics? I'd like to see this rather than just talk about how crappy the pumps are or how they die frequently.
I just wanna see it bolted up regardless of how it performs. that will be a test of time, so we can discuss that later.
jono794: (2010-12-13 23:56:44)
Davies Craig have a big name here in Aus. High quality stuff from what I've seen.
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_ … -list.aspx
Edit: Just realised with the current exchange rate it doesn't really matter how good the gear is, it's going to be too expensive for most Americans at the moment.
Chrisw_2003: (2010-12-14 01:12:39)
I was kinda thinking about doing a inline fuel pump as a water pump. just plumb it in and then when you want some extra flow or when your cooling down on the side of the track just flip a switch or wire it up to your efan relay
NewJerseyZ: (2010-12-14 02:54:40)
I wish I could oblige, but no working digital camera. Don't worry though, there is plenty I wish to document with pictures. I'm also replacing/upgrading a good many pieces now that the entire front of the engine is apart. I'm also upgrading my injectors, so there's that to work on as well. (And this frigid weather of late isn't incentivising any work being done as well.)
Some other notes on the spacer/water pump:
1) The new longer bolts needed are M8-1.25 x 80 (thermostat housing). PepBoys has them for $4.00/pair, but you'll still need a flat washer and spring washer for each, as the OEM ones off the original shorter bolts don't easily come off; besides, you'll want new ones to go with the new shiny bolts.
2) There will be some metal cutting needed in order to replace the timing belt front covers over the belt and around the body of the pump. Ordinary sheet metal shears will work well, and the fresh cut edge can be covered with "grommet edging" --- just be sure to use the high temperature material. Grommet edging can be found through Newark Electronics or equivalent supplier.
3) If you haven't figured it out yet, the cam gears will have to be removed to get at the thermostat housing bolts --- at least, I believe this to be the case. Removing the rear timing belt cover certainly makes working on this project much easier.
Oh … by-the-way, is the 7.8 compression VG30ET an interference engine? One of my cams (right side) rotated about 180 degrees while I was removing the cam gear with the crank at TDC for No. 1 cylinder. I felt absolutely no abrupt or striking force while this happened (slowly) and find it hard to think such a low compression engine would have issues. My cam has a lift of 0.392" and I have 1mm oversized Ferrea valves --- remember, this is with no oil pressure.
Careless: (2010-12-14 03:25:38)
yes
NewJerseyZ: (2010-12-14 03:31:49)
[quote]Careless wrote:
Oh … by-the-way, is the 7.8 compression VG30ET an interference engine?
yes
Ooook … so why did I not feel anything strike the piston?
260DET: (2010-12-14 21:32:48)
Don't see the need for an electric coolant pump at all, the coolant will thermo syphon by itself after shutdown. An electric thermo fan that can be kept running after shutdown is the usual solution.
Careless: (2010-12-14 23:33:29)
[quote]NewJerseyZ wrote: [quote=Careless]
Oh … by-the-way, is the 7.8 compression VG30ET an interference engine?
yes
Ooook … so why did I not feel anything strike the piston?
maybe it did, and you just don't know it :-P
Chrisw_2003: (2010-12-14 23:44:01)
well if you wanted your car to cool down faster (which I do so i can spend more time on the track) its better to have the water cycle through the system.
ZFast88Z: (2010-12-15 04:19:23)
And you will burn up pumps. Water doesn't lubricate like fuel does. Buy an inline electric water pump, there are plenty designed for this particular application.
NewJerseyZ: (2010-12-15 04:37:48)
I thought of that .... but I was also thinking that the lack of oil pressure (and very slow rotation) allowed the follower/rocker to bleed off oil as it might have hit the piston. I never felt even the slightest sensation of metal hitting metal.
Chrisw_2003: (2010-12-15 07:01:14)
[quote]ZFast88Z wrote:
I was kinda thinking about doing a inline fuel pump as a water pump. just plumb it in and then when you want some extra flow or when your cooling down on the side of the track just flip a switch or wire it up to your efan relay
And you will burn up pumps. Water doesn't lubricate like fuel does. Buy an inline electric water pump, there are plenty designed for this particular application.
I don't really care as I can just pull another one out of the junkyard.
NewJerseyZ: (2011-01-02 18:48:51)
Update:
Now that I've finally had some weather above 30 degrees --- December was a bust --- I was able to mount both the thermostat housing adapter and the CSR pump as modified by BDE. The fit went much better than I expected, as in bolting everything up and lining up the suction tube to the thermostat's new position.
Pictures to follow in a day or two, as they're being burned onto a disc by my neighbor.
Careless: (2011-01-02 19:12:58)
[quote]Chrisw_2003 wrote: [quote=ZFast88Z]
I was kinda thinking about doing a inline fuel pump as a water pump. just plumb it in and then when you want some extra flow or when your cooling down on the side of the track just flip a switch or wire it up to your efan relay
And you will burn up pumps. Water doesn't lubricate like fuel does. Buy an inline electric water pump, there are plenty designed for this particular application.
I don't really care as I can just pull another one out of the junkyard.[/quote:168uzxt5]
using a fuel pump to pump water when electric water pumps are readily available is a half-assed attempt at solving a problem you don't even have yet- like cooling issues. using your logic, if your engine burns down- you can buy another one of those from the junkyard too. but is it worth the hassle when you're in rush-hour traffic or an accident backs up the highway and your "fuel" or "water" pump dies?
just use an electric water pump made for the application.
260DET: (2011-01-02 21:43:56)
[quote]Chrisw_2003 wrote:
Don't see the need for an electric coolant pump at all, the coolant will thermo syphon by itself after shutdown. An electric thermo fan that can be kept running after shutdown is the usual solution.
well if you wanted your car to cool down faster (which I do so i can spend more time on the track) its better to have the water cycle through the system.
First of all the engine should not be getting so hot that it needs to cool down faster, in fact if you still have more runs to do then it only needs to cool down a bit, say to ~80 celcius. My 450whp turbo track car has some aero mods including bonnet/hood vents to improve cooling so by the time it gets back into the pits its usually cooled down enough so the manual switched fan is not necessary. This is in hot summer weather. The electric water pump idea seems to be a bit of drag racing fashion thing, extra weight and complication which with a properly set up car should not be necessary unless perhaps its a mega power engine.
EDIT 80 degrees celcius not F, duh, in other words just a bit lower than the running temp.
NewJerseyZ: (2011-01-07 03:35:30)
The following are photos showing the install of the CSR water pump and thermostat housing spacer:
1) Below one can see the final install. The spacer can easily be seen (on edge) as it is bright aluminum. Note the coolant return tube just to the right of the housing --- this is what causes it to arc slightly as it lifts up from the block by 1/4 inch. Also, note the close alignment of the suction tube next to the thermostat inlet housing.
[attachment=2:2922c9be]CIMG5369.jpg[/attachment:2922c9be]
2) A close up of the spacer itself.
[attachment=1:2922c9be]CIMG5370A.jpg[/attachment:2922c9be]
3) Prior to attaching the motor itself, one can see the need for the spacer, as the lower thermostat bolt would interfere with the adapter plate. A 1/4 inch lift was all that was needed.
[attachment=0:2922c9be]CIMG5387.jpg[/attachment:2922c9be]
NewJerseyZ: (2011-01-07 03:38:16)
Here is a shot of the Flex-a-Lite electric fan which is radially mounted to the upper OEM shroud. This was done to keep the directly heated air from going to the intake filter which will be mounted near the OEM location.
[attachment=0:1w9ofx4t]CIMG5398.jpg[/attachment:1w9ofx4t]
jono794: (2011-01-07 03:47:37)
^^Nice setup!
NewJerseyZ: (2011-01-07 03:50:48)
Thank you. I still have to cut the timing belt shroud to fit around the pump assembly, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem with a good pair of sheet metal sheers and some patience. I'll keep things posted as they go.
RXGhost: (2011-01-19 19:17:31)
Why not just clean up your block and run it with out the cover?
NewJerseyZ: (2011-01-26 13:27:14)
Because I'm the type that would end up with my finger getting caught in there, somewhere. No, really … that sort of makes me feel too uneasy. No room for any mistakes what-so-ever.
What's really holding me up is this damn cold weather I'm having out my way this season --- beginning in December (and I mean within the first few days) it's been brutally cold, and I don't have a heated garage. But everything is ready once it thaws a bit --- hell, I'll start working at 45F, too bad it's only gotten to around 35F at best.
Kennedy: (2016-12-01 04:33:40)
So how many hve updated to electric over the years? How many have gone back?
Davies Craig users?
But the main question that have been asked thrue years without answer. What is the stock water pump flow rate?
How much less there is need for flow when upgrading from stock radiator to like 3row Champion?
NewJerseyZ: (2016-12-03 05:05:02)
I've had my electric water pump on now for years with no issues, so I'm not one who is thinking of ever going back. I'm using the Euro radiator which does have a slightly greater capacity than the OEM US radiator; I swapped out due to my using Euro cams and other mods which result in about 50 more HP over stock at this time. As for using larger radiators --- like the 3 row you mentioned --- you want to be sure you don't cool down the coolant too much in the radiator, as it will result in the thermostat closing down due to the engine coolant becoming too cool. This will result in a too low flow rate which will cause the engine coolant to become too hot which will then cause the thermostat to open up … and the cycle will repeat over and over and have a hard time stabilizing. Unless you're running a really hot engine, a much larger radiator won't yield more cooling, the thermostat will take care of that by allowing greater flow. Radiators don't really cool the coolant as much as most people might think; 20 - 40 degrees F is typical. They are sized more to the engine than to the flow rate; their main job is to remove heat, not cool down the coolant all that much. My mods put me way over what the Euro spec HP numbers are, yet the Euro radiator works just fine. I also have a thermistor sensing the outlet coolant temperature from the engine, which can increase the flow rate of the water pump. (Yes, it's PWM controlled.) Together with a variable speed pump and thermostat I have no problems with overheating. And should I after a hard run on the freeway come to a dead stop, my electric fan takes over and does the job.