Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums engine-mechanical-aa/CM intercooler piping kit = failure
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NYZDude: (2008-09-15 02:06:21)
For your reference, look here to see what the assembled kit looks like.
CM says that you need an efan for it to fit as the stock clutch fan gets in the way. And so I obtained a Maxima e-fan to do the job.
Starting off, here's the throttle body pipe. As you can see they welded two nipples, at my request, for the idle control valve. The nipples are missized and poorly placed. The idle control nipple is very close to the valve cover. Any hose attached here will probably be pinched against the valve cover.
[archived image: turbofitting011.jpg]
Here's what the piping looks like overall in my 87 NA2T. As you can see, the E-fan is not fitted. This is because the piping will not fit with the Maxima e-fan. Maybe with the Taurus e-fan it will fit. Who knows. The piping goes over the radiator and behind the bumper. This kit is intended to be used with a wedge-type intercooler, and so I bought a Treadstone TRV-185 which is a spearco 221 clone. In order to fit this IC within the passenger side frame rail, we had to move the pipes as far to the right (as you're seeing it here) as possible. In order to do this, as the radiator endtank buldges at this point, we had to cut into the bumper a little to fit the pipe. While this allowed the IC to fit, the crossbar above the pipes no longer fit.
My intake attached to a snaked flexible hose. The intake pipe provided with the kit will not clear the stock motor mount. Only, perhaps, with poly motor mounts will the intake pipe clear. And then you would still need to mount the MAF and filter. I have a 9" K&N filter. This filter would have been too big to fit. The placement of the filter, right on the radiator, is less than ideal.
[archived image: turbofitting013.jpg]
A very poor fitting coupler on the top piping, due to the awkward bending of the piping. We tried every possible orientation with that pipe, and this is the best we could do. Another view of my ghetto-fabulous intake snake.
[archived image: turbofitting014.jpg]
After a couple of attempts at fitting where we could not re-mount the crossbar, we took the pipes out, bolted down the crossbar, and tried again. Again after messing with the pipes as much as we could, this the closest we could get. Would you expect a coupler on the larger pipe to hold 20PSI like that? Not only that, but a 1/3 of the radiator will not get an airflow from a e-fan because it won't fit under the pipes.
[archived image: turbofitting015.jpg]
More awkward bending
[archived image: turbofitting017.jpg]
So overall, the kit proved to be a huge disappointment. I will be sending it back and asking CM for a refund. I'll have to explore other options for IC piping that will keep the AC.
On the bright side, my turbo from cherryturbos.com bolted back in just fine. We managed to smush the stock turbo-TB pipe back on so that my car will be drivable in the meantime.
[archived image: turbofitting009.jpg]
Guest: (2008-09-15 02:11:13)
DAMN!!!!!!!
bleakdragonmage: (2008-09-15 02:48:14)
just go v-mount like mine…it can be used with AC…i can have the guy that made mine make you one…
SATAN: (2008-09-15 03:01:14)
This is exactly why I don't do custom IC kits or exhausts. That is not something anyone should do unless they have the car in front of them to work off of.
Gregmatic: (2008-09-15 04:00:30)
I was one of the first to have one of the CM kits about 4 years ago. It sucked worse than yours, welds were for shit. Sad to see that is the final result after years of being able to try to get it right. Sorry to hear that....
How did the adapter harness work out?
Neil86t: (2008-09-15 04:05:24)
Sorry for the bad luck. I hope you get your money back.
nutsaq: (2008-09-15 07:41:21)
bummer, make sure to send them those pictures. They are trying to get things right, and do it at a price z31 people are willing to pay (not much). I'm willing to bet you paid only a fraction of the cost of a 'kit' that is supplied for many cars with sales numbers factors of 10 higher than the poor z31.
NYZDude: (2008-09-15 11:03:47)
The pipes cost $700.
I understand CM's trying to do something good with the kit and that the design of the car itself is a big part of the problem. I just hate that I'm the one that again has to get an item from CM that's messed up. When I ordered my 3" exhaust from them, the downpipe flange was placed totally wrong, and I had to wait for a replacement. Then the cat-back system had a bad bend, so I had to go to an exhaust shop to have it cut up and re-welded to fit. I don't have a garage, I can't fab stuff up, I have to drive 55 miles in NYC traffic over to Chris86NA2T's place if I want anything done to my car. I need bolt-in items, and I'm willing to pay extra for the convenience of bolt-in items that fit. Enough rambling, we'll see about that refund.
Lou88NA2T: (2008-09-15 12:31:11)
that is a bummer Al. I hope you get your money back.
Your Z is not the DD is it?
NYZDude: (2008-09-15 12:57:28)
Just a slight correction, the pipes themselves are $450, my kit cost me $700 because I included a HKS BOV and flange with my kit.
Chris and I did put the Maxima e-fan on, and the Painless thermostat switch works great with it. The car is still perfectly drivable, but I'm gonna lay off the boost for awhile.
Elliott: (2008-09-15 22:23:46)
Now I'm glad I never got the one I ordered 3-4 years ago. I called Dave once a month for 6 months and never got the IC kit and the exhaust I did get (ordered both at same time) had to be cut and rewelded to fit too. Dave never charged me for the IC kit so I just let it go.
sreich05: (2008-09-17 11:29:10)
i bet if you let them work on the car for a little, the kit would be flawless, as would every other one they built. they need to work out bugs just like everyone else, and they would probably still do the refund
if i remember correctly they had no donor car to work off of
OK85ZX: (2008-09-17 11:45:45)
They had TBO's car for a while to work off of, which was using Maxima fans. He went through a ton of hassle with them to get it right but it fits, and uses the maxima fans.
In the years they have been offering this kit I have yet to read one success story about it. It truly puzzles me why people still buy it and complain about how it fits.
NYZDude: (2008-09-17 12:41:32)
Were any pictures posted somewhere? I'm curious to see how he got it to fit with maxima fans, because there was no way mine was going to fit. It must have been with a stock turbo and a smaller intercooler. With my intercooler the pipes would have gone right over the shroud of the driver's side fan, and therefore impossible to fit under the crossbar. I tried.
When I bought the kit, CM told me they had sold about a half-dozen of the newly available kits and haven't heard of any problems, I wish I could see some pictures of those setups. If it puzzles you why someone would complain after spending hundreds of dollars on something that doesn't fit after seeing pictures of one that fit, and being told that it fit, I don't know what else to tell you.
MikeZ: (2008-09-17 13:11:27)
Dave also used Ish's car as a template.
vagabond: (2008-09-17 14:44:11)
After seeing the DP flange, I decided to get MSA catback kit. Not seeing too much good work from CM.
OK85ZX: (2008-09-17 20:22:16)
Stock turbo, standard spearco wedge that everyone uses. There are pictures somewhere, I just don't recall where at the moment. The puzzling part is taking a businesses word on your hundreds of dollars after the majority of his customers who are a part of our community and have spoken out about their product, have talked about it negatively. It's kind of like buying something from an ebay seller who has all negative feedback just because you called them and they said their product is fine!
Secondly, as was mentioned before… a premade kit for an application that could have alot of different configurations is generally a bad idea if you expect it to be completely drop in. Different turbos, different IC's, different mounting points, different motor mounts, different air filters, different e-fans, etc etc etc.
Fuzzcheek1: (2008-09-17 20:53:11)
I just got the 3" turbo back exhaust from them this week. Wish I had seen this thread earlier. I'll see how it goes and post an update when I get a chance to work on it.
michaelp: (2008-09-17 21:33:06)
Their exhausts are awesome…
Guest: (2008-09-17 22:03:22)
im not gonna pay 4-500+ for an exhaust system when i can get a turbo back 3 inch made for 250 or less at any exhaust shop. i paid 120 for 2.5 inch cat back with a cat delete pipe at a place down the street from my house. it had more power to. he told me 250 at most for turbo back with satans manifold and an hx35.
NYZDude: (2008-09-17 23:18:40)
But they're the only business that makes stuff like this, so there's no choice but to go to them. I went to a few so-called performance shop in NYC to see if they could make the pipes for me, but once they saw the car they said no.
The only problem SHOULD have been the intake pipe into the turbo, since I have an aftermarket turbo. I could have lived with using the flexible hose for awhile. They said use an E-fan; the Maxima one didn't work, but I was willing to buy a smaller one that would accomodate the pipes. The last straw was the intercooler, which is another non-trivial item price-wise. I used the one they asked me to use (wedge type, same size as the Spearco 221), and it still didn't fit right.
CM has great products, especially for folks like me who cannot/can't be bothered to fab their own stuff, but I think their quality control with respect to their Z31 items is not to par.
EDIT: I just received my poly motor mounts in mail (thanks Jason, as always) so I'll try and re-visit this hunk of aluminum and see.
OK85ZX: (2008-09-18 03:34:47)
Please don't compare mandrel bent prices to crush bent prices. We all know you can get exhaust for cheaper crush bent.
85NA2T: (2008-09-18 14:25:46)
Um yea i just got a full 2.5 inch header back duels on my camaro for 250 and it was MANDREL bent piping.So that is not unreasonable.
michaelp: (2008-09-19 02:19:37)
With or without cats?
85NA2T: (2008-09-19 02:37:32)
without but he said it wouldnt have changed the price anyways.
Shady195: (2008-09-19 03:23:07)
NYZDUDE,
After seeing your parts list, i figured id try giving Cherry Turbos a call. I figure having the T3 Upgraded and keeping the internal wastegate would be cheaper than buying say a T3 60-1 .70ar with a stage 3 wheel. He told me anywheres from 850-1200 which I thought was kind of high
I can get a T3 60-1 .70ar with a stage 3 wheel for 650 bucks brand new....
but I will say the guy was very nice, seemed very knowlegable....
he also wanted to know how your making out with yours so far?
Chris86NA2T: (2008-09-19 03:39:18)
After you buy the turbo you described for 650 you will still have to have your stock turbine housing bored out to fit the stage three wheel. Otherwise you have to purchase and retrofit a non-stock wastegate. Then you have to make bracketry to mount the stock wastegate actuator, or buy an aftermarket actuator and bracket. Turbine housing boring starts at 100 bucks if you can find someone willing to do it. Furthermore, by using the stock center section you have no problem hooking up oil and water lines because the stock ones fit like stock. You can buy a basic t3/t4 for 650 and worry about all the small things to make it fit, or you can spend 1000 bucks and know that everything will fit perfect and all you may need to buy is a couple of gaskets.
Convenience and simplicity has a value.
NYZDude: (2008-09-19 04:15:45)
lol I won't know for awhile yet. This weekend I'm gonna try and get the fuel stuff I need installed, test out a couple of IC pipe setups and go from there. If I wasn't so keen on keeping my AC this wouldn't be a problem, but I'm trying to keep my car "intact" and comfortable.
400RWHP is my goal; it'll be at least another month or so, I think, before the car is ready to go for it.
Shady195: (2008-09-19 13:55:41)
[quote]Chris86NA2T wrote:
NYZDUDE,
After seeing your parts list, i figured id try giving Cherry Turbos a call. I figure having the T3 Upgraded and keeping the internal wastegate would be cheaper than buying say a T3 60-1 .70ar with a stage 3 wheel. He told me anywheres from 850-1200 which I thought was kind of high
I can get a T3 60-1 .70ar with a stage 3 wheel for 650 bucks brand new....
but I will say the guy was very nice, seemed very knowlegable....
he also wanted to know how your making out with yours so far?
After you buy the turbo you described for 650 you will still have to have your stock turbine housing bored out to fit the stage three wheel. Otherwise you have to purchase and retrofit a non-stock wastegate. Then you have to make bracketry to mount the stock wastegate actuator, or buy an aftermarket actuator and bracket. Turbine housing boring starts at 100 bucks if you can find someone willing to do it. Furthermore, by using the stock center section you have no problem hooking up oil and water lines because the stock ones fit like stock. You can buy a basic t3/t4 for 650 and worry about all the small things to make it fit, or you can spend 1000 bucks and know that everything will fit perfect and all you may need to buy is a couple of gaskets.
Convenience and simplicity has a value.
I can get the whole T3 60-1 With a stage 3 for 650 bucks, the whole turbo, I would not use my stock turbo… I have an external wastegate I can use but If it was cheaper I would have like to get the Stock T3 I have upgraded to save a few extra steps. The fittings match up so I'm only spending 650 bucks plus my own time to welding a flange for the wastegate.
Guest: (2008-09-19 17:45:13)
[quote]OK85ZX wrote:
im not gonna pay 4-500+ for an exhaust system when i can get a turbo back 3 inch made for 250 or less at any exhaust shop. i paid 120 for 2.5 inch cat back with a cat delete pipe at a place down the street from my house. it had more power to. he told me 250 at most for turbo back with satans manifold and an hx35.
Please don't compare mandrel bent prices to crush bent prices. We all know you can get exhaust for cheaper crush bent.
who does crush bent anymore??? if it was crush bent i would just go to advance and buy a bunch of prebent pipes and clamps to build my own. of course my quoted price was mandrel bent.
Chris86NA2T: (2008-09-19 21:12:01)
[quote]300cars wrote: [quote=OK85ZX]
im not gonna pay 4-500+ for an exhaust system when i can get a turbo back 3 inch made for 250 or less at any exhaust shop. i paid 120 for 2.5 inch cat back with a cat delete pipe at a place down the street from my house. it had more power to. he told me 250 at most for turbo back with satans manifold and an hx35.
Please don't compare mandrel bent prices to crush bent prices. We all know you can get exhaust for cheaper crush bent.
who does crush bent anymore??? if it was crush bent i would just go to advance and buy a bunch of prebent pipes and clamps to build my own. of course my quoted price was mandrel bent.
i dont know of any exhaust shops by me that make mandrel bent exhausts. Can we see some pictures of your exhaust? ill bet any amount that you did NOT get a mandrel bent exhaust for that price.
DeleriousZ: (2008-09-19 22:24:49)
crush bent can look smooth.. it just has 2 slight indents on either end of the bend, and the bent pipe is slightly more oval than round.
OK85ZX: (2008-09-19 23:09:55)
Exactly. The ones who actually have mandrel machines are few and far between.. and charge high because of that. Other exhaust shops who make mandrel bent exhausts just take a bunch of ubends and cut/weld them together which is quite a bit more labor intensive, and will charge as such.
Pictures or shenanigans.
Guest: (2008-09-20 00:04:01)
that car is stripped now man. as soon as i get my income tax should be about 6000 i'm getting satans manifold a t3/t4 550cc injectors and nistune ill take pics of that exhaust and ill take pics of the guy making my exhaust and ill scan the receipt. just got to wait til feb-march.
Turbo86: (2008-09-20 16:17:55)
I got my 3" mandrel bent exhaust system from CM a month before my turbo failed. I was glad I had a reputable exhaust shop install it, there was cutting and welding needed. Far from bolt on.
Besides that I am completely happy with it. Not only does the car sound great (hi flow cat, no muffler) but my engine runs MUCH smoother, the VG really appreciates good air flow.
NYZDude: (2008-09-21 02:32:09)
Just thought I'd give you all an update. First off, I think I'm going to end up selling my CM kit. Returning it for a refund seems to be a great hassle and I'm sure someone out there will find it useful.
We've opted to send a pipe over the AC as rick88ss does here:
http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/s … 7_full.jpg
We're using this photo as a template. So far we've mounted the intercooler and fabbed up the pipe that goes over the radiator to the point where you see that coupler. The other pipe is going to go through the fender. The irony of this is that we probably could have saved the stock clutch fan and shroud going with this in the first place, but oh well. The elec fan is already in doing a good job. Will post pictures when it's all done.
jjewell: (2008-10-01 12:07:47)
i really can't beleive how bad those cm pipes looked. the pipes that you and chris are making are going to be the poop when there all done and powder coated. :-) can't wait to see it all finished and boosting nice and hard like it should.
Z31Turboed: (2011-09-16 02:07:17)
I'll prolly make my own IC set up unless someone here sells one that is already proven to fit. (you can PM me if selling one)
The black Z in the post above looks like it has the same muffler. Magna-Flow. ( I assume a good turbo muffler since I got it from CM Performance?)
I live 2 miles from Dave's shop (CM Performance).
I took my Z31 to his place about 10 years ago and he removed the cat and put in a 2.5 in system from the down-pipe back including a muffler.
It's done well for the last 10 years. Still no rust that I can see.
I believe it was $325 or so. 10 years ago that was a good bit. I tried to install the pipe myself but couldn't get it to fit but I didn't have a garage or welder back then.
He was pretty good about spending time fitting it at his shop.
In fact, he installed the pipe. He spent about 2 hours with the car and didn't charge me for the labor.
I thought that was pretty decent....at that time. it's been 10 years.
I'll let you guys know.
I'm gonna drop by his shop and see what he'll charge me to sell me a pipe to fit from the Turbo to the place he left off 6 years ago.
Z31Turboed: (2011-09-16 04:09:34)
Sounds like sound advice.
Just took a quick look…LOTS of kits and Intercoolers.
Are there any vendors of particular IC's that are known to work best?
Por ejemplo....
Here's one that CLAIMS it's for a 300zx (not listed as Z32 or Z33…
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FMIC-…item4ceaf51acf
or.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/UNIVE…item2eb7b951ce
solost: (2011-09-16 05:07:43)
[quote]Z31Turboed wrote:
I wouldn't search for the kits by car, it doesn't matter.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CXRacing … 439601cc8a
It's cheaper than the second one you listed, pipes have the flared? ends. Pretty much the same parts apart from the U bends. I bought a similar kit from cxracing with the U pipes, but without the 90 degree couplers for around the same amount.
About the intercooler+pipe kits I don't know much about since I already had the intercooler.
Z31Turboed: (2011-09-16 13:01:06)
Thx guys.
I'll check out CX's stuff.
That's one thing I find I like about this forum. Better "quality" people.
Some of the other Z forums all you get is derogatory crap and put downs for everything you ask.
Kimbro Slice: (2011-09-16 14:44:28)
DEAD THREAD.
CX Racing is crap, their intercoolers have such a high steel content % that they're magnetic, and that means you won't get much cooling capability,.so you could still risk detonation.
88sinZ: (2011-09-16 15:28:35)
SCAT ducting, didn't notice that before… good idea
sprtcrazy17: (2011-09-16 17:45:00)
where'd you get this info from?
Kimbro Slice: (2011-09-16 17:59:00)
[quote]sprtcrazy17 wrote:
DEAD THREAD.
CX Racing is crap, their intercoolers have such a high steel content % that they're magnetic, and that means you won't get much cooling capability,.so you could still risk detonation.where'd you get this info from?
I know I have a link around here, but some racing company did a test between an ebay brand intercooler (CX or some other type ebay company) vs. a reputable brand name one. The brand name one not only kept the intake air significantly cooler over the ebay one, but you can take a magnet to one and it might stick to the actual ebay unit. I could be incorrect if the CX ones are better quality than other ebay brand ones, but a friend of mine who owns a small performance shop here in town showed me a CX one and actually stuck a magnet to the side of it. The newer ones could be made better or with a smaller steel content, but it would have to depend on the unit on a unit to unit basis.
EDIT: Here's a link with the test I was referring to…
http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-engine … stock.html
88sinZ: (2011-09-16 22:09:45)
Steel with aluminum is a mix for fast corrosion, I would imagine reports of this would be widespread considering how long they have been manufacturing intercoolers
Z31Turboed: (2011-09-29 02:14:54)
Ebay Intercoolers seem to work fine.
BLOZ UP: (2011-09-29 02:52:44)
Never heard of any aluminum alloy with iron in it.
michaelp: (2011-09-29 03:28:56)
I has a few CX Racing intercoolers, they're 100% Aluminum alloy with 0 magnetism.
Kimbro Slice: (2011-09-29 05:32:11)
[quote]michaelp wrote:
DEAD THREAD.
CX Racing is crap, their intercoolers have such a high steel content % that they're magnetic, and that means you won't get much cooling capability,.so you could still risk detonation.
I has a few CX Racing intercoolers, they're 100% Aluminum alloy with 0 magnetism.
Again, it could've been a completely different unit or just an older one, I'm not really sure. I'm just not a fan of any eBay intercooler, and I read that article and was pretty interested. You interpret it as you wish, but my bad if I'm confusing different units with CX racing ones.