Forums/Z31P/z31-basics how-to-guides-basic/Water/ alcohol (Methanol) write-up
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PulseCode: (2011-03-22 23:41:14)
After finishing the NA2T conversion I decided to use a DIY water methanol set up over intercooling. I am running 12- 14 lbs. of boost with no intercooling and wonder why this is not being utilized by more people with turbocharged vehicles. I haven't noticed the slightest hint of detonation at any time since installation. I am running 93 octane, 100% gasoline without any ethanol. This set up cost me around $150- $165 total. I had built a DIY HHO generator and used it for about a year during the ridiculous gas prices, so some of the wiring happened to work out perfectly for the Water/ Methanol system. I use the term "methanol" generically- I actually use a 50/50 distilled water / denatured alcohol mix. The alcohol is available in 1 or 5 Gallon cans at paint stores.
Understand the basic purpose of doing this to your car. You are simply adding a system that reduces intake temperatures at a FIXED RATE.
The first step is to convert my windshield wiper tank (Never really used) to a new duty. The wiper pumps are removed and I used fittings to cap one side and plumb the other. After modifying the openings, I used hot glue liberally around the seams. This tank is made of HDPE and as such, I am unaware of anything that will actually stick to this stuff other than hot glue. CLEAN everything inside and out on the tank- DRY IT thoroughly and them use the hotmelt glue (Emphasis on HOT). In fact, heat the glue immediately after it's applied with a torch for a few seconds- to make sure it gets hot enough to stick properly. I kept the "Low tank" plug feature for obvious reasons.
[archived image: 1.jpg]
Here the vinyl tubing runs thru a hole in the fender well. I'll state the obvious- All the tubing before the pump- low pressure tube is fine. And all the tubing after the pump must be high pressure.
I have since upgraded all tubing to high quality rubber and recommend this from the start. Why have to do it again?
[archived image: 2.jpg]
Here the tubing flows thru the fender well and into a 90 degree elbow as it will make it's way to the front drivers side of the car. I made some plastic brackets to hold the line in place. They are made from any thin plastic that are cut into 1" wide by 3" long strips and then heated up in the middle until soft. Then they are placed over a METAL pipe of the same diameter as the rubber/ vinyl tubing and briefly allowed to cool.
[archived image: 3.jpg]
Here's a shot of the pump- I think it was about $55 on E-bay. I used 1/4" Plexiglas to bend a bracket and then trim the bottom to fit the profile of the bumper. The 12Volt 60psi. version works fine. If you just want a little more, go with the 100psi. version.
[archived image: 4.jpg]
High Pressure hose leading from the pump into the Turbo charge pipe. The nozzles are part #3178K75 from McMaster Carr and are $4.00 Ea. They are rated for 3.1gph@40psi, 5.0gph@100psi respectively. After the nozzles came in- I went to Lowe's and fitted the rest of the brass plumbing.
[archived image: 5.jpg]
That covers the fluid transfer side of this project- next is the electrical part. I tapped into a wire under the dash that is energized when the key is on, to power the relay leading to the pump. The wire runs thru the hood weatherstripping and into the Hobbs pressure switch (Circled). On the right side of the switch is a rubber plug with an adjustment screw underneath for setting the psi that you want the switch to close at.
[archived image: 6.jpg]
Continuing electrically from the last pic of the Hobbs pressure switch- One wire goes back to my boost gauge and powers a green LED to let me know that it's coming on- and at the correct psi setting that I previously determined.
[archived image: 7.jpg]
The other wire coming off the Hobbs pressure switch goes into a 30Amp fuse and energizes the relay when it closes. The black box with the blue acrylic piece on it is a Pulse Width Modulator. It is commonly used to regulate the power going into a DC motor to make it variable in output from 0 to 100%. I installed it when I built a DIY HHO generator a year and a half ago to offset fuel prices. Now it is used to regulate the current flow to the water Methanol pump. The output wires run thru the fender and down to the right front of the car and then across the front bumper powering the Shurflo pump.
[archived image: 8.jpg]
In order to set the Hobbs pressure switch accurately you are supposed to use a tool called Mity Vac vacuum pump. I found them at O'Reilly auto parts store for $40. I didn't want to buy another tool that would not get much usage later, so I simply used a Nylon T- fitting and a tire gauge with some rubber tubing as shown in the pic. Slowly lower the handle on the bicycle pump to create the desired pressure. When the LED comes on- check the tire pressure gauge to see where it is set at. Then adjust the switch to the desired setting.
[archived image: 9.jpg]
This write-up has been cut and pasted from a previous thread. For over a full year since the install, this system has performed flawlessly. Since I am using water/ denatured alcohol, there is no need for tuning or O2 sensor adjustments to overcome.
The first Shurflo pump I bought was rated at 60 psi. and worked fine. I found a 100 psi. version of it on E-bay and replaced it today (Just cause I found one at a good price).
Here's a link to the site I followed. Bear in mind- I'm on the stock T3 turbo. WHY would someone want to do this as opposed (or in addition) to intercooling?
1. No further turbo lag introduced.
2. Relatively simple install.
3. Very reasonable price point.
4. Near bullet proof reliablity IF you use HIGH quality parts.
5. Higher boost levels/ more power safely
http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html
[archived image: 10.jpg]
PulseCode: (2011-03-23 00:14:21)
Thanks 300cars, I still haven't figured out how to do that.
If the mods could be kind and lend a hand. Thanks.
strongbad728: (2011-03-25 16:44:53)
Thank you!!!! totally doing this after my na2t is running! It saves space, time and money!
At what psi could it start hitting detonation? :-D
Z-31Turbo: (2011-03-25 16:52:00)
Safety would be arround 6PSI on NA2T
strongbad728: (2011-03-26 20:18:44)
so I have to get a boost controller to lower the boost from stock? I meant the actual set boost…
Z-31Turbo: (2011-03-26 20:54:41)
I mean the methanol pump should start operate at 6PSI. You can boost much more without detonation since this system is used for this purpose.
strongbad728: (2011-03-27 00:27:53)
gotcha [archived image: smile.png]
michaelp: (2011-03-27 00:42:37)
[quote]Z-31Turbo wrote:
Thank you!!!! totally doing this after my na2t is running! It saves space, time and money!
At what psi could it start hitting detonation? :-D
Safety would be arround 6PSI on NA2T
Many people have pushed NA2Ts to 10psi intercooled, and even some have gotten away with 10psi non-intercooled. Depends on your ignition timing. If you ran Meth injection you'd be fine at 10psi. You're fine at stock boost (6.8psi) without any form of intercooling (including meth injection) on a NA2T, or even 8psi…
I ran 11psi on an intercooled 9:1 CR NA2T. I would have run 8psi unintercooled, but I just jumped straight to a FMIC with 11psi, though I did run stock boost unintercooled for a bit.
PulseCode: (2011-03-27 18:55:24)
My pressure switch is set to close at 6 psi. and max boost is set at 12 psi. on my manual boost controller.
So, anytime I hit 6 psi. boost, all the way thru 12 psi. the water/ alcohol spray mix is being injected.
maverickxeo: (2011-04-03 06:45:26)
Just so everyone knows, I ran a water/meth setup (50/50) on my old turbo car; and was pushing out 17PSI on the stock T3; with STOCK fuel system with a crushed regulator with no detonation.
Of course, as a warning, every car is different; blah blah blah…
Z-31Turbo: (2011-04-03 13:39:32)
What power did you put down?
I plan to have that same exact setup this summer, maybe not as high as 17PSI but in that area.
You have a W-series?
maverickxeo: (2011-04-03 14:06:18)
No, it was an 85; and I never got it down to the dyno. I do recall that temps were VERY low just before the throttle body. When I was spraying meth it was cooler than when I was cruising on the highway.
Z-31Turbo: (2011-04-03 14:38:39)
How about injector size, CC rating and pump pressure?
SATAN: (2011-04-03 17:03:51)
Why are people not just using washer fluid? It's cheap and IS actually METHANOL and not ethanol. Methanol cools a LOT more than Ethanol does. This is why a turbo charged car running Methanol does not use an intercooler. Because it gets the intake temps TOO COLD if you do.
Crusherbait: (2011-04-03 18:34:15)
Agreed!! I just bought 15 gallons of Peak -20(I think that makes it 50/50 water & methanol) at Wal-mart at a 1.64 each. If I did the math right I should get about 35 15 second pulls per 1.5 gallon tankfull.
The set-up is going to include dual stage boost switches, pre turbo and post turbo injection with a 250psi pump. I'm having problems connecting to my test vehicle so I can compare and verify the results. Will see soon enough, I'm hoping to increase my powerband by 500rpm or more if I'm lucky.
Edit: Looked up the MSDS a couple of days ago and it shows that the mix contains up to 33% methanol. Maybe I'll throw in a couple of bottles of heet for good measure.
maverickxeo: (2011-04-08 21:22:29)
The reason is washer fluid is NOT always 50/50 mix, and if you tune for a 50/50 mix it can screw things up pretty fast; not to mention there ARE sometimes additives in it that are NOT good in an engine.
I think most brands vary from 30% to 40% methanol content.
SATAN: (2011-04-09 16:36:59)
[quote]maverickxeo wrote:
Why are people not just using washer fluid? It's cheap and IS actually METHANOL and not ethanol. Methanol cools a LOT more than Ethanol does. This is why a turbo charged car running Methanol does not use an intercooler. Because it gets the intake temps TOO COLD if you do.
The reason is washer fluid is NOT always 50/50 mix, and if you tune for a 50/50 mix it can screw things up pretty fast; not to mention there ARE sometimes additives in it that are NOT good in an engine.
I think most brands vary from 30% to 40% methanol content.
Like what? What chemicals are in washer fluid that are "NOT good" in an engine? If washer fluid is 30% meth, does that mean the rest is water?
If that is the case, wouldn't going and buying JUST 100% Methanol be the best solution? Then you can mix it however you want and you are getting the cooling benefits of actual METHANOL and just just ethanol. Both alcohols cool your intake charge, but methanol cools substantially better than ethanol does.
Also, Crusherbait has a 10 second Dodge Colt that he obviously has good experience running just washer fluid as he mentioned. I'm not saying you are wrong, but what is in the washer fluid that is bad. Can you go off of how cold the fluid is good to in order to determine it's methanol content?
maverickxeo: (2011-04-09 20:58:31)
[quote]SATAN wrote: [quote=maverickxeo]
Why are people not just using washer fluid? It's cheap and IS actually METHANOL and not ethanol. Methanol cools a LOT more than Ethanol does. This is why a turbo charged car running Methanol does not use an intercooler. Because it gets the intake temps TOO COLD if you do.
The reason is washer fluid is NOT always 50/50 mix, and if you tune for a 50/50 mix it can screw things up pretty fast; not to mention there ARE sometimes additives in it that are NOT good in an engine.
I think most brands vary from 30% to 40% methanol content.
Like what? What chemicals are in washer fluid that are "NOT good" in an engine? If washer fluid is 30% meth, does that mean the rest is water?
If that is the case, wouldn't going and buying JUST 100% Methanol be the best solution? Then you can mix it however you want and you are getting the cooling benefits of actual METHANOL and just just ethanol. Both alcohols cool your intake charge, but methanol cools substantially better than ethanol does.
Also, Crusherbait has a 10 second Dodge Colt that he obviously has good experience running just washer fluid as he mentioned. I'm not saying you are wrong, but what is in the washer fluid that is bad. Can you go off of how cold the fluid is good to in order to determine it's methanol content?
From what Ive read, they sometimes have glycol in the mixes. The main reason though not to run washer fluid is because of the mixture. It is rarely constant; and a 50/50 mix is ideal in terms of cooling and octane.
I personally run 50/50 meth/water (I buy 100% meth and mix it myself); its not expensive either; I got 20L for $27 I believe.
maverickxeo: (2011-04-09 20:59:42)
[quote]SATAN wrote: [quote=maverickxeo]
Why are people not just using washer fluid? It's cheap and IS actually METHANOL and not ethanol. Methanol cools a LOT more than Ethanol does. This is why a turbo charged car running Methanol does not use an intercooler. Because it gets the intake temps TOO COLD if you do.
The reason is washer fluid is NOT always 50/50 mix, and if you tune for a 50/50 mix it can screw things up pretty fast; not to mention there ARE sometimes additives in it that are NOT good in an engine.
I think most brands vary from 30% to 40% methanol content.
Like what? What chemicals are in washer fluid that are "NOT good" in an engine? If washer fluid is 30% meth, does that mean the rest is water?
If that is the case, wouldn't going and buying JUST 100% Methanol be the best solution? Then you can mix it however you want and you are getting the cooling benefits of actual METHANOL and just just ethanol. Both alcohols cool your intake charge, but methanol cools substantially better than ethanol does.
Also, Crusherbait has a 10 second Dodge Colt that he obviously has good experience running just washer fluid as he mentioned. I'm not saying you are wrong, but what is in the washer fluid that is bad. Can you go off of how cold the fluid is good to in order to determine it's methanol content?
From what Ive read, they sometimes have glycol in the mixes. The main reason though not to run washer fluid is because of the mixture. It is rarely constant; and a 50/50 mix is ideal in terms of cooling and octane. Ive heard you *can* go off the temp rating on the washer fluid, but again, its not always constant. Lower temp = more meth, but also a chance of more glycol.
I personally run 50/50 meth/water (I buy 100% meth and mix it myself); its not expensive either; I got 20L for $27 I believe.
DudeZX: (2011-05-25 00:31:26)
I found the turbomirage site a while back and planned on doing meth injection on my Z later on because I don't care for my intercooler setup. Looks like you beat me to it though. Nice work.
maverickxeo: (2011-05-26 03:56:20)
So I just wanted to update on the AFR's Im getting with methanol. I am using a fairly large nozzle (Cooling mist has it set for 400HP), and very low fuel pressure right now. At boost (15PSI on NA2T) and with timing set at 10 Degree advanced over stock, I am sitting at about 11 for an AFR. 94 octane fuel from Husky, and no detonation/pinging/knocking.
Kimbro Slice: (2011-05-31 05:34:08)
Noob question, but you NEED to change your AFR in a methanol injection setup?
maverickxeo: (2011-06-02 23:53:42)
I dont think you NEED to. In my wideband guide (that came with the wideband) it has AFRs for all sorts of fuel setups, and it shows that meth injection SHOULD be around 10 or so at WOT.
Kimbro Slice: (2011-06-03 00:12:45)
So technically, if I was to run the stock AFR (whatever the actual number is), then would I risk detonation at 15 psi with meth injection?
Z-31Turbo: (2011-06-03 13:56:42)
No, you can adjust the injector of the methanol injection kit according to the pressure / flow you need.
There's lots of information about methanol injection on the net, just read more and you should be able to answer all your question.
It's pretty simple & easy.
Haven't done it yet, but it's what I plan to do soon
PulseCode: (2011-06-04 01:34:37)
My second Shurflo pump appears to have failed. I tested my 12V power all the way up to the pump with my Fluke but, it's not working.
I started this set-up with a 60 psi. Shurflo pump. I then found a good deal on a new 100 psi. Shurflo pump on E-Bay. I sold the 60 psi. pump
here to a Z31 member (Don't remember who) but, was immediately informed by the buyer that it was DOA. Of course I refunded his money and
thought nothing more of it. Well now that this pump has failed I'm going to buy a Coolingmist pump that I know will hold up to the methanol. I
thought the Shurflo pumps would be fine witth a 50/50mix water/ alcohol but, don't think so anymore. They are about $100 on e-bay + shipping.
PulseCode: (2011-06-04 01:50:01)
BTW, after a little digging I found that the Shurflo pumps WILL work fine as long as you use the one with the EDPM seals instead of Viton seals.
If you go this route make sure that you get this model number in the 12 Volt pump from Shurflo 8000-912-288.
maverickxeo: (2011-06-08 04:51:16)
I believe I have that same pump… it always works.
PulseCode: (2011-06-13 23:23:14)
IMPORTANT UPDATE-
I installed my new Coolingmist pump with EPDM seals and was thinking "I'm glad this is finally over". I like having reliable stuff that works.
I had this nagging feeling that something more was going on, so I opened up the old Shurflo looking for failed Viton seals on my second pump.
I'm glad I liked tearing things up as a kid to see how they worked. No such failed seals. In fact, the seals looked perfect. If you look at the first
pic of my pump install, splashed water is making it's way up to top of the pump during rain periods, and running down into the guts causing rust.[attachment=2:23p0cr9u]Shurflo.jpg[/attachment:23p0cr9u]
So, I'm gonna make a cap to fit on the top of the pump so that splashed water will run off to the sides.
300zxturboftw: (2011-08-11 16:55:06)
Let's say I fill up the entire stock washer bottle with a 50/50 mix. If I'm on the track at WOT most of the time, how long till all of the mixture is used up? I have been considering it, but it almost sounds like it's only useful when at the dragstrip or autocross.
Careless: (2011-08-11 17:02:51)
depends on how large your jets are. and no, you won't be at WOT all the time. LOL. What kind of track are you on? is you driftin?
what you could do is set up a map sensor on a board and only trigger the meth at certain loads rather than WOT.
300zxturboftw: (2011-08-11 17:27:03)
I live near very open tracks like Autobahn and Road America where you are on the throttle a lot more than the brake. I like the idea of MAP sensor to only use at certain loads. Only time I would want it running is at full boost. Still not sold on it because if it runs out and I'm tuned for it then bad things can happen. Although…I guess I could tune without it and then use it as a safety device.
This stuff probably burns through MAF sensors, right (as in ruins them)? Was thinking I could send it pre-MAF and with a cooler charge/denser air the MAF will adjust AFR's accordingly. That would kind of be stupid anyhow considering after the MAF is more effective to use for "safety device" type use.
Sigh, my posts suck lately. I need to get off here and work on my car.
Kimbro Slice: (2011-08-11 21:26:46)
I've seen guys put their injectors right at the throttle body, and that would save(?) your MAF if it does damage it. But you make a good point, the MAF might be able to adjust AFR accordingly.
Z-31Turbo: (2011-10-12 16:38:20)
Pulsecode,
I'm thinkin about getting my car setup with a Water injection system.
Now,
If I run the setup right before the throttle body, this mean my MAF won't consider the real 'air' density going to to engine, making my AFR leaner.
Did you have any problem with that so far? My plan is to max-out the OEM setup (T3 & injectors) next summer. All I want is to stay away from detonation. I'm wondering if this setup will let me run leaner without detonation since the air temperature will be lower. On top of that I'll run 94 octane fuel.
What do you think?
4cfedz31: (2011-10-12 17:00:38)
Assuming you dont have a I/C, run the nozzle pre compressor If you have a I/C, place the nozzle before the TB I put mine obout 7-8" from the TB.
Read…
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/ … _info.html
PulseCode: (2011-10-21 21:28:54)
No, the MAF won't "see" the difference in the water/ methanol injected. Since you are on the stock T3 (Like me)
I would recommend the small nozzle. The part # is listed on the first page. Also, just as an aside, It has been my experience
that when you "max" anything out, it tends to wear out/ breaks down quickly. Anything above 12-14 psi on the T3 is going to
yield you minimal power results and generate alot of heat. Running something at 85% of a systems' max is usually safe.
Kimbro Slice: (2011-10-27 14:06:23)
As my now knocking motor caught the shitty rear end of. Here in Alabama, I was running 10-12 psi with spikes possible up to 15 psi without an intercooler or meth injection, and it held up fairly well. Only weird thing is that the knock started when I wasn't even in boost, but with my next motor meth inj. seems the way to go.
rangerkid: (2012-01-17 00:56:20)
So I'm a little bit confused, do you actually need a pulse width modulator to control your pump, or can you just use the proper jet size in the charge pipe? If you use the pulse width modulator how do you know where to set the on/off time on the pump?
PulseCode: (2012-02-04 02:21:34)
No you do not need a PWM to control the pump. On stock T3, start with a small jet.
The pump is controlled (Off or On) by the Hobbs pressure switch- available thru NAPA.
Adjust the screw under the rubber plug for the psi. setting you want it to come on at.
IF you use one, Pulse width modulator can be adjusted manually from 0-100% duty cycle.
The original site that I followed directions from. http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html
86NA2TZ: (2012-03-18 04:14:25)
Do you have a delay from when the switch closes the relay, powers the pump, fills the line then injects?
I used a pressurized system with a small solenoid valve just before the nozzle, and then a simple purge circuit to fill the line with fluid before the engine starts. The hobbs opens the solenoid instead of activating the pump, its instant, and you can use a much smaller pump because it doesnt need to work as hard to get the pressure up to the solenoid.
Also, drilled hole in the bottom of the washer tank, tapped it, then a small âshark biteâ type quick disconnect ( I think I used 1/8, Iâll have to look) screws really tight into the tank. Itâs been sitting full for over a month and hasnât leaked a drop. I made a small 2âx9â PVC reservoir tank that hides under the master cylinder, adds a few cups more fluid but still uses the level indicator in the main washer tank.
evilshredder: (2012-05-22 07:14:02)
This concept is new to me but the price is right
I have a couple questions
1. Keeping with the vacuum-line-ness of the z31, is there anyway one could trigger the injection of of the intake manifold? Where your cruise/ac vacuum line comes from?
Good idea… Bad idea?
here it is…
2. Any benefits on a mildly modified NA 150k+ on the engine… always running 87 octane… any chance this could give the ol beast a leg up? If not just for cleaning out the engine? Gas milage improvement claims on the 50/50 kits for NA cars… What are your thoughts on this?
I plan on doin the whole nat2 thing and could still utilize the system
MADMIKE: (2012-05-30 05:21:34)
Sorry to bump an aging thread but I was thinking of fabbing a 45deg 1/8 npt bung into my intercooler setup. Would there be any gain in firing it towards the engine, away from the engine or just straight in?
PulseCode: (2012-07-04 20:49:35)
If your injection nozzle is misting properly, I see no measurable results happening.
Forced air induction is sucking in the spray quickly. But, I still like the idea. :-)
MADMIKE: (2012-07-05 17:12:38)
I don't think it will have a serious affect but I would love to avoid puddling.
bobby17772: (2012-07-10 20:39:26)
just out of curiosity, how did you tune your setup, or did you even tune it? Like did you just install it put in the sprayer you thought would be right and take it for a rip, or did you actually take it to get dyno tuned?
Z-31Turbo: (2012-07-11 01:17:16)
You don't really tune it.
All you need is the correct nozzle size, and proper pump.
And it can save your engine.
bobby17772: (2012-07-11 02:41:09)
oh because I was reading that to get the best results you should tune but I couldn't really find to much besides what was on turbomirage but still.
Black 89Turbo: (2012-07-13 17:36:18)
There is SOO much information out there about Meth/alch/water injection. Pre turbo and post turbo.
Turbobuick.com
aquamist forum
ausrotary/rx7club
dsm forums
There is TONNNSS of information out there, enough to read around the clock for a whole month.
Buy this kit and you will be g2g.
http://wannaspeed.com/index.php?main_pa … cts_id=181
maverickxeo: (2012-07-15 19:21:41)
If someone says they 'tune' for meth injection, basically they play with timing and boost. Youll have a higher octane fuel, and the IAT will be quite a bit cooler, so in theory, you can make more power when it is optimized for the meth injection. I personally would NEVER 'max' the injection system though.
PulseCode: (2012-07-23 17:25:47)
You "tune" your car for a water/ methanol system the same exact way you "tune" your car when you add an intercooler. :nanan?re
This of course is for a BASIC water/meth. install. All you doing is adding a system that reduces intake temperatures.
You CAN set up a water/meth. system to work alongside or within a tune for those trying to milk every last HP from their engine.
For the most part, the addition of a water/methanol system, as discussed in this thread- is to reduce intake temps at a FIXED rate.
TurboZcaR: (2012-12-06 17:00:54)
Do you have this kit? or have you heard of anyone using one?