Forums/Z31P/z31-basics basic-modifications-basic-questions-aka-the-newbie-forum/I'm a moron
Imported from Z31Performance.com Forums{{#if:13PsiPlease| — original post by 13PsiPlease}}{{#if:2008-02-12 03:01:12|, posted 2008-02-12 03:01:12}}{{#if:35| · 35 post{{#ifeq:35|1||s}}}}{{#if:/Z31performance_archive/forum/z31-basics/basic-modifications-basic-questions-aka-the-newbie-forum/4211-i-m-a-moron.html|
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13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 03:01:12)
Has anybody used this set up: 420or 480cc ben injecotrs holset hx35 jwt tuning and cobra/z32 maf and walbro/z32 fuel pump. IF so how is it working out and if not or if there is a reason why you shouldnt please tell me why?
Andrevas: (2008-02-12 03:02:07)
Re: whats to cum!
one, yes lots of people have used similar setups, it sounds like you ripped that off from members here
second, learn to fucking spell, especially the thread title
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 03:19:10)
Re: whats to cum!
hey you got the avatar jacken off. Thats all im gona say. Could you give me the sn of the people with similiar specs? OR Am i gona have to look?
Andrew84zx: (2008-02-12 03:29:56)
Re: whats to cum!
- roll:
no jwt or hx but everything else, i cant think of anybody using the jwt ecu off the top of my head
why have a premapped ecu when you can have a rom/nistune one for less
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 03:37:46)
Re: whats to cum!
Well after looking into the pocket romulator its still pricey and the nistune is bout the same price and with jwt i dont have to play with number casue there are no tuning shops that will tune my car for cheap or with out a dyno and i dont really know how it all works yes i've read the faq on nistune and pocket romulator bout the k values and what not but its still kinda hazey and i dont wanna spend 4,5,6 dollars on a fancy eprom system and not know how to use it and the jwt solves all those problems. Now if i had sombody to take me under there wing in the san antonio texas area now that would change every thing.
bemis: (2008-02-12 03:51:09)
Re: whats to cum!
please change the title of this thread or it will get deleted.
bemis
MrwassmanNA2T: (2008-02-12 04:26:19)
Re: whats to come
whats to come. :lol: Shit ur back. You'll have luck with that stuff. Research how much CFM of air those injectors can support, the turbo map, etc. Pretuned stuff is easy, but it takes the fun out of it.
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 04:31:21)
Re: whats to come
well let me take a step back is 420-480cc injectors bout the right size for a hx35 aiming for 15-20 psi or is that a lil over kill? that should put me well over 300rwhp right?
Andrew84zx: (2008-02-12 04:37:49)
Re: whats to come
all the info is out there, all it takes is time, and willingness to learn.
i am going to be honest here.if you are not going to take things seriously (your first title was a good example) nobody will take you seriously. i don't know if you and your buddy turbine ever went to San Antonio raceway like you posted in the events section. but 3-4 of us were actually planning on going out there. but after your little spat with mel and the attitude of most of your posts at the time, put a bitter perspective in our minds and we decided to blow the meet off.
you can ask anybody on here, and they will tell you that i am more than willing to help out, and they do the same in return for me.So hopefully you have changed your attitude since then so the few of us that are in San Antonio will be willing to help you out with your tuning.I am not trying to be a jackass or anything, im just stating what has been done and how i feel about the situation.
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 04:50:06)
Re: whats to come
Well we did go the track i actually glazed the fuck out of my clutch so now it slips all the time and im saven up for the southbend stage 3 clutch and if i can find a hx cheap and injectors and sombody to help me tune. but my whole attitude has changed from before and ive dont alot of research and im definatly being serious and i would love help casue i live in boerne and every body here has evo's or sti's or a big cummins that are chipped out. They all dont beleive that my car can hang with the new technology oh and my buddy turbines a big fucken dumb ass and into small block v-8s so he's no help.
MrwassmanNA2T: (2008-02-12 04:53:16)
Re: whats to come
I am going to help you out here for a second.
So 420cc/m-480cc/m. You need to convert to lb/hr, You do this by dividing by 10.5. So 40-46 lb/hr injectors.
Now for the fuel required for a 3 Liter, 2 Valve engine w/ say a Volumetric efficiency of 85%, spinning 6500 RPM @ 15-20 lbs of boost. Pressure Ratio is 14.7+Boost pressure Divided by 14.7.
183(CID) x 6500(RPM) x .85 (VE) x 2.36 (PR)
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''3 456'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''' = 690.4 CFM
So, now we know how much air is flowing @ 20 lbs of boost we need the fuel to match it. Which is found by CFM x .44298 Divided by # of cylinders.
690 x .44298
''''''''''''''''6''''''' = 50 lb/hr injectors.
50 lb/hr injectors. Remember these are rated at 43 psi with the injector operated at 100% duty cycle (Not pulsing)
So you need more fuel. Not to mention a 9:1 Static compression engine @ 20 PSI has a Effective compression ratio of 21:1. So your little ECU idea will probably not fly so well.
Now that you were GIVEN some basic formulas, you can figure out what you need from here. Hopefully this will help not look so lame to others. Good luck :-)
Edit: Someone please step in if this seems wrong, i am new to this and it seems like good practice to figure this shit out.
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 05:00:38)
Re: whats to come
OK bigger injectors or less boost. What do you mean my ecu idea wont work? Are you talking bout the jwt ecu and maybe it isnt designed to handle that much fuel/boost? What is compression effiecency?
MrwassmanNA2T: (2008-02-12 05:02:57)
Re: whats to come
You will need to tune the car.
Spool down turbo, i never said anything about compression efficiency. Slow down and start reading.
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 05:15:17)
Re: whats to come
sry effective compression. but i also figure that at 16 psi thats 609cfm roughly and you would only need 44-45 pound injectors so 480cc injectors would work but that would be close to 100% duty cycle if my calculations are correct. And what psi is the stock fuel pressure at? casue im sure it isnt above 40 but im probably wrong
MrwassmanNA2T: (2008-02-12 05:20:24)
Re: whats to come
So there is your starting point right. 15 psi for safety sake. Fuel pressure at idle is will be lower, but should end up around there. Not to sure, i have not put a gauge on it yet and can't remember what has been said. Maybe a quick search will help you.
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 05:28:52)
Re: whats to come
i have a question bout your equation tho. ok small turbo and big turbos have different sized wholes of where the compressed air comes out the compresser housing(do you get what im sayen) so are you baseing the volume of air the block (183ci) has in it at 20 psi or are you using some specs you know bout the holset hx35 it self. IT seems your using the engine block to calculate the estimated denstity/volume of air would/should be in the motor at 20 psi. and i think i just answered my own question. so i can use this equation no matter what turbo i use
MrwassmanNA2T: (2008-02-12 05:31:49)
Re: whats to come
Your holset is going to flow Lbs/Min at a given boost pressure. Find a map, and i'll show you the equation for that.
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 05:34:13)
Re: whats to come
Ok one more question then ill leave you alone in your experiance what would the best tuneing for what i want to do or what ive listed above? NISTUNE ROMULATOR MEGASQUIRT? MY ecu is a 1984or85 but my car is a 87 na2t Same o2 sensors correct.
MrwassmanNA2T: (2008-02-12 05:39:14)
Re: whats to come
Sorry bro, I find myself asking the same question. I'd say give nistune a shot. I am stuck between 2.
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 06:11:13)
Re: I'm a moron
http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/gener … g-l-2.html
half way down the page is the map explain
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 06:17:02)
Re: I'm a moron
IS volumetric efficiency of 85% pretty accurate or were you just using it for the example? but wouldnt the volumetric be way above 100% due to forced induction and get greater and greater as boost was raised.
MrwassmanNA2T: (2008-02-12 06:26:27)
Re: I'm a moron
So now that we know how many lbs/min this turbo flows at 15 PSI or a PR of 2.02. And you probably want to hit full boost by half of your red line so 3250 right?
You have to do the CFM equation of the engine for 3250 and 6500.
- - - - Math Time - - - -
295.5 CFM @ 3250 and 590 CFM @ 6500.
Now you have to convert CFM into Lbs/Min. This is done by dividing CFM by 14.27.
295.5/14.27=20.7 Lbs/min 590/14.27= 41.34 Lbs/min
So now you have the 3 Magic numbers.
1 - Your PR of 2.02, which is the Left side of the Turbo Map.
2 & 3 - Your Range of full boost action from 20.7-41.34, which is the lower numbers on the Turbo Map.
If you go outside of those circles to the left, you have gone past the surge Limit. That is bad. Now it is your turn. Just match the numbers up and see if they fall into the map. So tell me, does it seem to work?
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 06:39:05)
Re: I'm a moron
yes? maybe! what do the numbers on the bottom represent ?
Andrew84zx: (2008-02-12 06:41:54)
Re: I'm a moron
that is what the PR is for, at 20lbs boost (PR 2.36) with a VE of 85% you motor will be 200.6% efficient per stroke.
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 06:46:47)
Re: I'm a moron
so it it like connect the dots go up 2.02 and over to 20.7 thats one dot then from there you move over to 41.34 then draw a line between the 2 and thats your line and if doesnt fall inside of the map your surging? but what does 20.7 and 41.34epresent?
Andrew84zx: (2008-02-12 06:51:30)
Re: I'm a moron
the lb/min your motor is flowing at 3250 and 6500 rpm
MrwassmanNA2T: (2008-02-12 06:54:42)
Re: I'm a moron
Yeah. A Dot at 20.7 and 41.34 w/ a line fromt 2.02 all the way across.
Andrew84zx: (2008-02-12 06:58:46)
Re: I'm a moron
so lets say your motor somehow reved to 13000 rpm then the you motor will flow is 82.68lb/min and that would be out of the efficiency range of the turbo.
the turbo is not spinning at the same speed even if it is boosting 20lbs all the time. the turbo first has to match the cfm for the motor at a certain rpm, then has to make pressure ontop of that. so its easy to see how you can run out of efficiency
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-12 07:01:52)
Re: I'm a moron
wow im a dumb ass i just got it ,wow thats so simple its converting it back a forth that got me ok kool. so this map/turbo should work just fine then right!
Andrew84zx: (2008-02-12 07:03:40)
Re: I'm a moron
woops i didnt see he converted to lb/min, i corrected my posts
Racinjitter: (2008-02-12 07:05:12)
Re: I'm a moron
You do know that all of this information is on the homepage of this site, right?
http://z31performance.com/articles.html
matthunter1448: (2008-02-12 07:58:13)
Re: whats to come
honestly from what i've read and understood considering i have a standalone
in experience what would be the best for tuning for what you want to do is truelly based on what you want to do.
nistune - uses the stock ecu to tune and u still have a mass air flow and no outputs for anti-lag boost control, traction control and many other features. it also doesn't take to much to install into the ecu and you don't have to wire the car
megasquirt - has all of those features but does not use the mass air flow it uses speed-density to operate and read pressure or it uses tps value either way works plus it comes with many features and is easy to diagnose if theres a problem with it there can't be many sensors that are bad cause theres only like 5 so.... easy diagnosis the only bad thing about going the standalone route is that you have to wire the motor urself but in my experience it wasn't bad cause it taught me alot and now i have a bad ass engine management system so........
hope this helps you guys in your decision
MrwassmanNA2T: (2008-02-13 05:05:49)
Re: I'm a moron
He needed some explanation, and I need the simple equation/values practice. Maybe this will get him actually thinking about helping himself out by using google and looking up some simple equations.
nismopu: (2008-02-18 06:59:03)
Re: whats to come
weird! I grew up in Boerne, lol. Sorry, I have nothing more to add. lol.
13PsiPlease: (2008-02-20 04:11:06)
Re: I'm a moron
what does it mean if the line starts to the left of the map and comes into the map like it does on this map of a hx30 starts just out side of the map. does it mean the exhaust flow isnt sufficient to spin the turbo wheels? and if so what does that mean it just will take a higher rpm to reach peak boost or what? Yes higher rpm or knee!!
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/ … ompmap.jpg