Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums suspension-chassis-and-brakes/MORE RT stuff: Negative camber roll center adjusters!
Imported from Z31Performance.com Forums{{#if:G-E| — original post by G-E}}{{#if:2013-07-16 21:16:43|, posted 2013-07-16 21:16:43}}{{#if:87| · 87 post{{#ifeq:87|1||s}}}}{{#if:/Z31performance_archive/forum/z31-performance-upgrade-forums/suspension-chassis-and-brakes/22144-more-rt-stuff-negative-camber-roll-center-adjusters.html|
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G-E: (2013-07-16 21:16:43)
Production run will commence once I have the samples at the end of this week or early next… expect to be able to ship in less than 3 weeks
Specs: 32mm tall, 18mm lateral offset
10 pairs will be available to start, if we can get 20 confirmed orders with deposit, we can save $10/pair in anodizing cost
I'm also having 3 sets made in plain steel, perfect for further machining for lightening, zinc/paint however you like
Pricing: $170+ship for aluminum, $140+ship steel
G-E: (2013-07-16 21:52:25)
Oh I will include socket head bolts and lock washers to mount it to the spindle, then reuse the steering knuckle bolts to attach to it
frostvectron: (2013-07-16 23:21:02)
What colors will be available for anodizing and how much is shipping cost to USA?
G-E: (2013-07-16 23:27:00)
They'll come in black, until something darker comes along…
Shipping should vary $20-30
adamvann3: (2013-07-17 00:14:38)
How much gained camber?
These would have been awesome 3 months ago when I was trying to clear my LXZs.
G-E: (2013-07-17 00:26:20)
I can't tell you in degrees, since the more you tilt the strut, the more the increase it will give… but at the normal strut angle, the 18mm offset is more like 11-13mm of kickout
Anyone using the s13 coilover adapters will be able to really fine tune the camber curves and ackerman with these…
adamvann3: (2013-07-17 00:57:17)
Base it off stock strut length with OEM mounts would be a good baseline. Couple of quick geometry calculations since your car is apart should be a good ball park.
Standard camber plates (stance) can get you positive (lets say 0) 0 to -4* (with flipped under plate maxed). I went through the process of seeing what max camber would be when fitting the LXZ vs what I needed to pull the fenders out. There are many routes to gain, or fine tune (adjustable LCAs). But this would be a viable low hassle two birds with one stone situation
- I dont mean to sound like a broken record here, as I like you products, but you would gain more respect (probably sales) if you ever had actual data and road time to back up your products. You're good with 2/3 of the project but lack the last half of development. You would largely benefit from having a working test mule/car.
G-E: (2013-07-17 01:35:34)
Oh you mean pepe :P
I'll be heading to whitehead soon enough, we can play with several of my thingies together, bucking the trend, they are actually busy… hard for us to make times work, but it will
Rustspecs13: (2013-07-17 02:55:28)
Seriously. X100
~Alex
frostvectron: (2013-07-17 05:49:31)
Is there a reason why they are open on one side? I am used to them looking like this (for other cars):
G-E: (2013-07-17 08:19:10)
Because the rest is unnecessary material ?
frostvectron: (2013-07-17 14:59:26)
I see. Just wondering because I noticed the regular Z31 bumpsteer spacers are also a full "cup".
slammedcoupe: (2013-07-17 15:21:52)
it would be nice to see a full cup!
300zxturboftw: (2013-07-17 16:53:26)
Should seat completely fine still with his design. +1 to adam saying wish he had these done a week or so ago!
Careless: (2013-07-17 17:04:46)
not sure if titty joke or you like adding unnecessary weight to corners of car/suspension. [archived image: confused.png]
frostvectron: (2013-07-17 17:54:19)
Cool! As long as it works, I don't care what the shape is. :P
Can't wait to see the samples! You can put me down on the interested list.
ShamWow: (2013-07-17 18:03:42)
Benefit of half cup is that the coilover adjuster can extend out the bottom of the knuckle
MADMIKE: (2013-07-18 20:40:30)
Great looking design. Subd
G-E: (2013-07-18 21:47:50)
Thanks
slammedcoupe: (2013-07-19 03:14:19)
really how much weight are we talking? they aluminum or steel its likely less than half a pound by far…
and I didn't realize it but it could have been a titty joke
Careless: (2013-07-19 04:23:59)
everything adds up!
i like titties. the more weight on them, the better.
G-E: (2013-07-19 04:55:26)
I just assumed it was a titty joke, but now I'm sad it wasn't [archived image: frown.png]
G-E: (2013-07-19 05:11:56)
Just to add an addendum about weight, I will try to limit the addition of weight where possible, sometimes it's a simple matter of adding a limited amount of machining complexity, in order to save unnecessary material.. of course if it doubles the cost I may rethink the approach
There's a lot of things that I will not make in aluminum, specifically for strength reasons, but in every other case, where the stress can be refined to structural areas or even converted to say compressive load, then aluminum becomes a great option
Compare my BBK, a kit installed on one side, calipers, brackets, rotors and all the hardware, weighs the same as a single *EDIT* 370z track/G37s rotor
The s13 coilover adapter will add a tiny bit of weight over using a stance sleeve adapter, since any s13 coilover will have additional weight in the form of a bracket, this is function vs weight a tradeoff, much like a roll cage… this is not a part that could be made in aluminum
Careless: (2013-07-19 05:16:25)
sez you! hmmmmph!
adamvann3: (2013-07-19 14:56:22)
I like how you are providing reasoning for yourself and careless..... No one was really concerned about weight.
There is maybe 1 or 2 people here that I would call competitive racer...... Like you mentioned above, saving some weight is nice, but not to the point your doubling machining costs.
I mean we should be switching too drilled titanium hardware [archived image: smile.png]
slammedcoupe: (2013-07-19 14:58:31)
lock wire holes for mad space shuttling
adamvann3: (2013-07-19 15:02:57)
Ill be interested in seeing the prototypes installed and seeing the alignment differences. Best of luck!
Careless: (2013-07-19 16:31:37)
for someone who was whining, bitching, and probably crying about inqui-z-tor making backhanded comments about photoshopping pictures in order to make them look good, you really have a good way of sneaking in backhanded comments yourself....
..... NOT.
saving weight is never a bad thing. this is something that G-E and I discussed off the boards and is one of the features that are an advantage to this product. the lack of uneccessary metal provides both weight savings and ability to access the coilover adjuster, as well as a place for any water or road shmoo to drain through if it leaks down the threads, ultimately saving them from corroding just a little bit more than they would normally. what do you do when you market a product? you list all its advantages. any weight savings that doesn't compromise price or integrity is FEATURE.
Rustspecs13: (2013-07-22 19:35:09)
Saving weight is not a bad thing. Correct.
But how many people on this board (or really any one) do you think will notice if the only change in the car is one with this design, and this design lacking the extra machining to make it lighter. Im not even sure if I would be able to tell my self.
Have you done any FEA testing on this design? What makes you think this is structurally ok? Ive never seen a roll center adjuster like this one. Obviously doesn't mean its bad, just no one has done it before. Id like to see that it doesn't make the design significantly weaker. Its an interesting idea for sure, but it should be proven to be safe and sound of course.
~Alex
Careless: (2013-07-22 23:26:19)
you guys make me lol.
FEA testing.
300zxturboftw: (2013-07-22 23:52:46)
Ill take my chances with solid steel in this design. If I crash ill let you know. I could probably put tripple the weight each corner would produce under g's and im sure it would be fine.
Careless: (2013-07-23 02:44:55)
yea for real. with all the other products produced without any data or FEA or CFD that people buy into, you'd figure people would be quakin' in their boots before launching a product.
G-E: (2013-07-23 02:59:04)
It was thoroughly tested using mash potato models, it withstood sustained attacks by fork, but urine samples were not taken at the time of testing
Careless: (2013-07-23 03:07:19)
well when you do actually urine test it, we will need all the data about acid content and ph level at the time of testing. i am personally a 7 right now, so i doubt my urine will be suitable. but i'll definitely pee all over your product since everyone else loves to shit on them.
Rustspecs13: (2013-07-23 04:58:40)
How could FEA testing or anything like that be a BAD thing?
And why is taking 20-25% of a suspension part and calling it dead weight and machining it off a GOOD idea? And keep in mind this includes a stepped piece to transfer load in all directions.
Just for sake of argument, since that material is useless, you can machine that off of stock lower toe arm right? Its dead weight too. (Oh I know this is a bad example for a few reasons, but just think about it)
~Alex
G-E: (2013-07-23 05:29:59)
I'll counter your bad example with another bad example… if you wanted to handle the loads in all directions, naturally we should have several springs and shocks located radially with at least one forward, one backward, and one upward, we wouldn't want any forces to feel left out afterall, that would be cruel
Rustspecs13: (2013-07-23 05:55:00)
Totally missing the point I was trying to make, and avoiding all questions.
Classy.
~Alex
G-E: (2013-07-23 06:30:14)
I'm not avoiding anything, there's no just straight questions to be answered, maybe I need to ask and answer my own damned questions and then you can nitpick later…
Issue: We know the rotational force on the stock part is entirely taken up but the bolts, and surface friction, by offsetting it, we increase that rotational force slightly right?
Answer: We are tripling the amount of thread available for the bolt, what we lose in density, we add by increasing area
Issue: The retaining ring isn't complete, there is a missing section, this will cause a directional weakness right?
Answer: About 70% of the retaining ring is there, so longitudinal forces are covered, high lateral forces (as in the case of the outside wheel in a turn) are also covered, the lateral forces on the inside wheel are very little, mostly because of the angle, the bulk of the force is actually vertical, compressive force
Issue: If everything is offset, what happens to my scrub radius?
Answer: Scrub radius gets increased, just as it is by using a wider, lower offset wheel, if there is strut clearance, a good option is to now use a higher offset wheel
Issue: Track width will increase right?
Answer: Yes, by using any offset spacer, so to keep a wheel at the same position as before, you'd need a higher offset wheel, or if you used wheel spacers, you could use thinner ones
Issue: I saw a nature show where whales were humping, I wish I had more humping
Answer: You'd never satisfy a whale, don't worry
300zxturboftw: (2013-07-23 13:25:47)
Issue: My BBK hits the control arm when mounted with normal Bump steer spacer's, will this fix it?
Answer: Yes
THAT IS ALL I CARE ABOUT! =D
NissanEgg: (2013-07-23 15:39:49)
Russ's adjustable bumpsteer space is alot bulkier and heavier than this. Also as far as I know, Russ never did any FEA testing. But he has done auto-crossing on them, which would incur pretty good levels of stress into them.
G-E's set up seems to be a more simplified version of Russ's.
G-E: (2013-07-23 20:14:01)
Very very slight tolerance issue… they will work, but 4 seconds of filing the steering knuckle holes to use them (the threaded holes on the spacer are too close together by 0.58mm)
As such, I will blast these out, $140 shipped a pair… 5 sets available right now!
Careless: (2013-07-23 20:33:26)
Russ's spacers have a far higher chance of splitting apart or breaking into "two pieces".
I wonder if Rustspecs13 mentioned anything about that in the V2 thread, or noticed there was no FEA testing there either.
also, it does not transfer load in all directions, and you can find pictures on google images of them starting to split in the middle.
hmmmmmm…
300zxturboftw: (2013-07-24 01:02:05)
So....are sets being made with the right clearances? How long till those are out?
frostvectron: (2013-07-24 02:39:50)
[archived image: shut_up_and_take_my_money-t2.jpg]
G-E: (2013-07-24 03:03:44)
Note: I'm going to include the recessed bolts only, 30mm socket head with lock washers --- the final versions will include replacement knuckle bolts/washers too
G-E: (2013-07-24 16:16:14)
Soooo I drilled a set of steering knuckles with a 1/2" bit, very easy, self-centering all that… got a clean hole, no chamfering or filing, the "defective" parts fit perfectly
Lateral offset when installed: 11mm max…
Plenty of room underneath for coilover adjuster, plenty of room for road crap to drip out too with that big slot in the sleeve
300zxturboftw: (2013-07-24 17:26:49)
Install and post pictures with your hubs/rotors (bbk) and control arm attached please and I will buy a set.
G-E: (2013-07-25 08:06:16)
2 sets shipped, 3 sets left… get em cheap, let a sub-millimetre mistake save you money haha
frostvectron: (2013-08-12 01:01:18)
Drove it around locally today and nothing has spontaneously exploded. Autox testing next weekend.
[archived image: 100_1898_1600x1200.jpg]
[archived image: 100_1919_1600x1200.jpg]
G-E: (2013-08-12 01:28:21)
Going to paint them?
Looks like you have a nice stance and camber with them, how do you like?
frostvectron: (2013-08-12 01:34:20)
Will probably just spray it black at some point (before they become rust-orange color?). Should've done it earlier… whoops.
I am very satisfied with the gain in front negative camber. Good stuff! The ride is also so much better with bumpsteer spacers than without! Also, the overall machining quality is great!
G-E: (2013-08-12 01:54:02)
You can spray them down with wd40 or other light oil in the meantime
I hope it helps you at the auto-x *edit* I think I should stop making morbid jokes about parts failing
frostvectron: (2013-08-13 00:17:01)
Hahaha. I wasn't worried before the joke… but now… HMM. [archived image: rolleyes.png]
- yolo
It should help at autox. Just from some theorycraftin' the increased negative camber should help tire bite on turn in. Autox is relatively slow speed, so the reduction in straight-line traction under braking because of more camber isn't too much of an issue.
It should also help tire wear since the super tight twisty autox courses likes to kill the outer edge of your front tires (unless you trail brake like a mofo like me…).
jaqattack02: (2013-08-13 01:24:26)
So does using these raise the ride height of the car?
DeleriousZ: (2013-08-13 01:42:46)
No, it lowers the control arm back to a more reasonable angle for lowered cars.
G-E: (2013-08-16 22:22:25)
One set left before the new versions in aluminum arrive… bolts and washers included to mount to the spindle
zdriver_kado: (2013-08-17 05:17:30)
I'll take the last set.
ToiletFlush: (2013-08-19 16:01:39)
I'll buy a set when ever you have more to sell
frostvectron: (2013-08-19 17:42:09)
Just used these units yesterday at autocross. My car didn't spontaneously flip over and explode!
The additional negative camber was fantastic for getting tires to bite on turn-in. Thanks, G-E!
300zxturboftw: (2013-08-19 19:01:53)
My car exploded (like literally burst up in flames) when using these. Beware. Was it wrong to pour gas all over the car and smoke cigarettes beforehand?
I chose not to paint mine. It will only see summer weather, and honestly it's only seen the garage so far. If anything I'll have them blasted and anodized like they should be coming from the producer =D
G-E: (2013-08-21 20:50:01)
Yea you would try to have steel anodized :P
ToiletFlush: (2013-08-22 14:23:58)
You still making these so I can buy a set from you ?
300zxturboftw: (2013-08-22 15:59:35)
Still possible?
Zinc or Galvanized steel can be anodized at lower voltages(20-30V)as well using direct currents from silicate baths containing varying concentration of sodium silicate, sodium hydroxide, borax, sodium nitrite and nickel sulphate.[12]
lol
adamvann3: (2013-08-22 17:40:40)
No before and after alignment specifications, no care. What are the gains?
Pauls: (2013-08-25 02:57:54)
These look impressive.
Like how it allows for coilover tube drainage!
frostvectron: (2013-08-25 03:14:44)
Sorry, I didn't measure before adding them. Afterward I am measuring ~5.7 degrees of negative camber up front (with camber plates at max).
G-E: (2013-08-25 03:44:58)
HAH… they would look hot with some satin nickel plating though…
G-E: (2013-08-25 03:49:49)
- UPDATE*
New batch is done, there will be 5 sets in steel and 10 sets in aluminum to start with…
The aluminum ones haven't been anodized as yet, but I can begin taking orders for the plain steel parts, I should have them ready to ship by mid next week
G-E: (2013-08-30 23:21:05)
The current kit will include everything you see here:
- 2x spacers
- 4x 35mm socket head screws with lock washers
- 4x 45mm hex head screws with plain and lock washers
Steel $160 shipped (can/usa)
Aluminum (clear anodized) $195 shipped (can/usa)
G-E: (2013-09-01 07:58:01)
Bottom and inside view
[archived image: rCu1Zqj.jpg]
tatsu: (2013-09-01 08:17:03)
I'll buy a set once I get the spare money haha
G-E: (2013-10-04 23:47:08)
Aluminum now in stock! Ready to ship… see above for pricing
reddzx: (2013-10-05 02:30:37)
I'll take a set of steel one, PM payment info.
G-E: (2013-10-20 14:25:10)
Steel is back in stock on tuesday, if anyone wants to place any orders
NissanEgg: (2013-10-20 15:46:20)
Do you have any before and after camber alignment values from anyone that has ordered some yet? I want a set, but holding out for the camber plates too.
G-E: (2013-10-20 20:10:50)
The only accurate way to give you that information is to chart various static cambers before and after at several heights… the more camber you have, the more it gives you
And the other reason is, because it adds more camber on turn in, even if you zeroed it for straight ahead, it's a different animal
Which camber plates are you talking about, zach's for stock struts?
vegasZ31T: (2013-12-11 01:25:25)
From my experience adding 3/4" offset (for a standard height strut) will garner about 2.2* of negative camber.
I had these made up two years ago and that's what it worked out to be. These are 3/4" offset x 1.5" high.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4t499wjbx0…%20spacers.jpg
Next one will also have 3/4" forward offset to add about 2* of caster.
G-E: (2014-01-07 12:19:06)
These are 1-1/4" tall and slightly under 3/4" offset… people have reported 2.1 to 2.3 degrees of camber to me, so we're in the ballpark
RXGhost: (2014-01-11 04:28:28)
I just found this I will take a set send me the payment info
Showaski39: (2014-02-01 23:32:01)
G-E, I have some questions that I hope you can answer.
1) What is the benefit of choosing aluminum over steel, weight saving?
2) Do your RCA spacers require any modification at all? Acadianasportscars.com states that a small modification is required to fit their RCA's.Their site states they "require a bare minimum of modification to N/A cars and 84-86 Turbo". This also seems to be the case for the ones from tf-works.com as one review mentions "Would have given 5 stars, but modifications to my lower control were required and this was not mentioned in the description to the product. So be aware of this possibility, as the end of the LCA may rub the back of the brake rotor."
3) Lastly, do you have any allum or steel in stock?
G-E: (2014-02-03 08:01:43)
1. Yes aluminum is for weight savings, anyone with normal sized wheels and normal activities including aggressive driving would be well served by aluminum…
Steel parts are "heavy duty" let's call them, they will take serious abuse, with a weight premium per side -- of course there's other ways to offset the weight
2. The offset gives you increased control arm to rotor clearance, there is no modification required, just basic surface prep and cleanup
3. Both types are in stock
On a side note: I would recommend steel parts if you regularly disassemble your suspension, the aluminum threads will wear faster, though this is just a longevity suggestion
Showaski39: (2014-02-13 06:03:53)
Yeah, I was really interested in the steel - how can I go about ordering a set? I'm going to mate them with my Powertrix coilovers.
G-E: (2014-02-14 06:57:08)
PM'ded… is it 10 yet?
89 300ZX 2+2: (2014-02-16 17:59:14)
PM sent.
G-E: (2014-02-19 04:53:52)
Because I've been asked about the hardware a few times, here's everything you get..
[archived image: alu-rca-kit.jpg]
Showaski39: (2014-02-23 03:25:25)
The picture won't load
G-E: (2014-02-23 05:41:44)
Try again? 