Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums engine-mechanical-aa/High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion kit
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a22770: (2011-12-30 01:56:22)
I'm having roller rockers made, roller tip, bushed on the shaft. threaded adjusters with a swivel foot (hopefully). Already have inserts made for the lifters to convert to solid. Already have the valve cover spacers made. Designed mainly for higher lift, my cam is .544" lift, and open up the possibilities for better lobe designs. Although the heads stall at .425" lift, they can be ported to gain flow to .750" lift (making good use of higher lift cams). Was wondering if anyone else would be interested, possible group buy? Price point should be around $850 for the kit, possibly less if I can order enough of sets of rockers. Here are a couple of pics.
[archived image: lifterconversion008.jpg]
[archived image: valvecoverspacer008.jpg]
MADMIKE: (2011-12-30 02:50:49)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Good job, I'm not really in the market but this is very cool
SATAN: (2011-12-31 00:37:32)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
THIS would be the way to go for anyone wanting to shim their lifters. The way I did it was very tedious.
So to be clear, the kit consists of what again?
a22770: (2011-12-31 08:43:54)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Kit will consist of 2 valve cover spacers with longer bolts for the valve covers, 12 lifter inesrts, and roller tip rockers.
Russ84na: (2012-01-01 15:29:21)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Seems to be a very fair price for the kit. Seeing as the company in Australia wants $1540 for a set of rockers. Do you have any pictures of the rockers you are having made?
a22770: (2012-01-01 17:10:54)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Not yet. Custom Speed Parts is making them (aka Harland Sharp). Probably late january before they finish them. Should be very good quality pieces. Inserts are Smith Brothers, also very good quality stuff. Spacers are local source. I will share the part numbers and contact info after the kit is complete. Not looking to make money, just further the development of the vg platform.
michaelp: (2012-01-01 17:40:09)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
From what I've seen, VG swaps into other cars are increasing, not just a Z31 thing anymore. It'd be a great idea to advertise this other places, if you haven't already. IMO
SOHC240SX: (2012-01-16 22:50:06)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
I am very interested in seeing how your conversion kit turns out!!! Sounds like a very sweet conversion!!
RMWheeler300zx: (2012-01-18 03:39:11)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Just curious, how much for just the lifter spacers, without rocker arms or valve cover spacer?
stprasinz: (2012-01-19 00:29:56)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
The lifter shims would require an adjustable rocker arms though. You can't use these shims any other way. Shims would be different if you are only shimming the lifters.
SOHC240SX: (2012-01-19 22:48:28)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
How much for the valve cover spacers? Any new pics yet?
a22770: (2012-01-20 00:09:24)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
I'll double check the prices tonight. I think the lifter inserts were about $8 each, and the valve cover spacers were about $130-140 range for the set with bolts. They say they are almost finished designing the rockers. May be slightly higher than originally expected, no extrusions to make them from, so will have to be made from billet.
SOHC240SX: (2012-03-11 23:29:14)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Any Updates???
NissanEgg: (2012-03-11 23:40:27)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
How does the valve cover spacer work? Gasket on both sides?
a22770: (2012-03-11 23:57:17)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
No updates yet, rockers are designed but not manufactured. The valve cover spacer uses silicone on head side and stock gasket on the valve cover side. Got one on my motor right now with 6k miles and no leaks at all.
a22770: (2012-04-03 18:58:25)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Update.. Rockers are being machined now. Should ship to me next Monday.
MADMIKE: (2012-04-03 19:21:58)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Very cool awaiting more info.
maxpower91: (2012-04-05 05:25:04)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Could you use just the roller tip rockers while keeping the lifters hydraulically driven? (I know this defeats the purpose of this upgrade package, but I'm just curious) Also, will these keep the same rocker ratio, and would there be any advantage to adjusting the ratio like American engines?
a22770: (2012-04-05 22:39:12)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Yes you can use on hydraulic setup. This would allow for larger lift hyd. cam packages as well. Just screw the adjuster down to preload the lifter. Added benefit of roller tip is less guide wear. Talked to manufacturer today and they will be using a swivel foot on the adjuster, like the ones from JPC in AU. Should be in hand by next thursday or friday.
a22770: (2012-04-13 19:49:23)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Finally done. Lost the swivel foot on the adjuster, ended up with a ball. Works very well though, geometry is spot on. Could handle longer valves and more lift, probably as high as .700". Price came in at $500 for the rockers, which puts the whole kit at around $720. Will work out final pricing later, could go lower if we arrange a group buy. Here are some pics o the rockers.
[archived image: DSC00459.jpg]
[archived image: DSC00462.jpg]
[archived image: DSC00460.jpg]
1sikz: (2012-04-13 19:55:19)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Sexy
shromy: (2012-04-13 20:07:22)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Pretty damn nice sir, kudos to you.
G-E: (2012-04-15 05:33:45)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
OH NOES! someone is making the VG into a modern engine?!
nismopu: (2012-04-15 05:40:20)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Why no roller/needle bearing center?
a22770: (2012-04-15 13:47:58)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
It can be done, i'll ask how much more next time i talk to the manufacturer. I'm just chasing more lift. So didnt want to spend the money on something with such a small benefit. If I had spring pressures that were double where they are now it would make a little more sense. However i will be asking for the change back to the swivel foot adjuster. And possibly make them a little lighter, like the JPC rockers.
dustin87: (2012-04-15 15:53:19)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Wicked awesome dude. This will even just make engine operation in general smoother!
RocklinMike300zx: (2012-04-15 18:48:36)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Makes me want to hold on to my isky mega-cams and have my spare heads ported and polished, to be honest.
Careless: (2012-04-15 19:12:15)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
no full roller, no care [archived image: frown.png]
but nice job. they look great.
only thing is, they wouldn't work with the roller lifters I has.
might make sense to purchase a set and modify them for my application.
can the brass/bronze bush be pushed out safely?
a22770: (2012-04-15 20:08:54)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
you can run bushed rockers with roller lifters. but to go roller fulcrum it requires more expensive parts and 2 styles of shafts which you end up with 2 part numbers. The problem with roller lifters is you need blank cam cores for new lobes. can't fit roller lobe on flat regrind, unless you weld them up.
Careless: (2012-04-16 03:29:44)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
I know. We've been looking into suppliers for the cam cores. JWT cam cores are unground upon delivery, but they still have a flat tappet profile that will not work even when ground for roller lifter bodies. There are two other suppliers- but we haven't really proceeded with anything yet. Other work in the pipeline.
As for the 2 shafts per rocker, that's also already solved :-)
a22770: (2012-04-16 04:47:57)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Why try roller lifter? Any particular reason? From where i stand it makes more sense to stay flat tappet, especiallty considering the more aggressive opening ramps that can be had with our lifter diameter. All flat tappets have faster ramps initailly than rollers anway.
Careless: (2012-04-16 05:38:15)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
for the same reason why all the SBC powered cars I've had the joy of being in have benefited from roller lifters. The ramp rate isn't as important as having the valve hang open wider at every degree of duration which it is open for.
also, the weight factor is offset by less friction.
every SBC motor my friend Jay has ever built has benefitted from running a roller cam- even going from a similarly spec'd flat tappet cam in the exact same motor- everything else unchanged.
the better question would be "why not?".
Also, for what it's worth- larry wildmer at endyne sent me an email when I requested info about RB26 cams… and he explicitly outlined that the reason he goes for Tomei cams is because they have a less agressive and more progressive ramp-rate, which prolongs life of the parts and allows the cam to roll across the lifter bucket with much less effort, even in high lift applications.
In your professional opinion… why would a faster & more aggressive valve open/close ramp be beneficial in comparison to having it ramp up less aggressively but hang open further and for longer at it's peak with less friction due to the roller bearing? wouldn't that allow us to run lower lift cams and still maintain adequate airflow similar to that of a higher lift flat tappet cam? I figure it's not only lift that matters, but progression of lift. When it's averaged out, slightly lower lift open for a longer portion of the duration seems like a better way to get air than having an aggressive ramp up to the max lift for a smaller fraction of the duration.
no? i thought thats what roller cams provided.
this picture combines both what you say as a benefit to flat tappet (aggressive lift) and what I was thinking a roller lifter provides (progressive ramp, longer valve open time at peak lift)… and says that rollers provide BOTH of those enhancements.
[archived image: FlatVsRollerChart.gif]
G-E: (2012-04-16 06:06:57)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
that's a little disingenuous
the roller cams in this thread still rely on the flat bottomed lifter on the cam, and that's what follows the lobes
if the lifter was a roller bottom or if the roller cam ran directly off the lobes, THEN we might see a different ramp profile
[archived image: r1W1v.jpg]
Careless: (2012-04-16 06:19:33)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
that's not what im trying to portray. I'm legitimately asking why a roller is no better than a flat tappet in this case considering a227700 knows way more about engines than I do, but I've never seen a roller or retro-roller conversion NOT make more power with similarily spec'd cams. It's a legit question for someone who knows a lot more than I do- whom I hope replies with a good answer instead of "because i build engines and you don't, that's why".
There are some good ideas that can be put into practice, and combining these two efforts can only make the VG more appreciable, no?
G-E: (2012-04-16 06:33:21)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
well one major premise of these roller rockers was the angles to allow larger lift, if they can do that great!
but the idea that these prototypes reduce friction is dumb, the largest point of friction is the lifter of course, followed by the rocker shaft, and neither of those were addressed
Careless: (2012-04-16 06:49:44)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
well jessel developed a set almost identical to these for all the nissan campaign motors, so they address something worthy of production :-) a227700 is in the right direction- but the whole shebang would make the SOHC VG something fierce.
Careless: (2012-04-16 06:53:22)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
the bolded line has me wondering… why does the lifter diameter matter at all if the tapet surface itself has a larger circumference than a roller follower footprint? maybe there's just something i'm not really getting from all this and as to why a roller follower is not a good idea.
G-E: (2012-04-16 07:39:34)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
[quote]Careless wrote:
Why try roller lifter? Any particular reason? From where i stand it makes more sense to stay flat tappet, especiallty considering the more aggressive opening ramps that can be had with our lifter diameter
. All flat tappets have faster ramps initailly than rollers anway.
the bolded line has me wondering… why does the lifter diameter matter at all if the tapet surface itself has a larger circumference than a roller follower footprint? maybe there's just something i'm not really getting from all this and as to why a roller follower is not a good idea.
a flat bottom lifter will meet the highest point of the lobe way sooner than a roller or pushrod, but by the same token it goes down faster, look at the quickie diagram I made to get any idea how that works
the plus side to having a more focused point to coordinate with is that the lobe shape can be tailored for more mid-lift opening, the the oncoming shape can be different than the trailing side too… the biggest benefit may be the reduced velocity and lower end speed especially of the rocker/lifter going up = better longevity/less stress, possibly even less float
Careless: (2012-04-16 20:59:58)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
i realize the flat tappet actuation on a cam lobe. i was just confused with the "diameter" part of the sentence. i still think there is power/benefit to be made with a roller follower lifter.
a22770: (2012-04-16 23:35:02)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Not sure i will give the best explanation, but here goes. If you look at how the lifter rises with cam rotation, it can only lift at any one point on the lifter, as the contact point moves away from the center of the lifter it will accelerate faster. cam rpm stays the same but contact point moves outward to a larger radius. larger radius = longer distance, longer distance in same amount of time = faster speed. The larger diameter allows the camgrinder to move the contact spot farther out. and since we have larger diameter lifters than most cars, gives us some room to explore with different opening and closing ramps. Hope is helps.
lapp90: (2012-12-13 19:43:25)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
still awailible? put me down for a set. u take pay pal?
a22770: (2012-12-13 23:57:25)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Still available, has porsche 911 adjuster now for longer life.
G-E: (2012-12-14 04:31:09)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Why aren't there more pics?
MADMIKE: (2012-12-14 16:42:11)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
+1 on more pics [archived image: smile.png]
lapp90: (2012-12-18 02:10:21)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
do you take pay pal? and i have to do some thinking if i by these or http://www.jpc.com.au/?p=340
a22770: (2012-12-18 05:35:56)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
New design shipped today, will have pics up by the weekend, hopefully.
a22770: (2012-12-21 05:19:40)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
here are the pics of the rockers.
http://s252.beta.photobucket.com/user/a … sort=3&o=1
http://s252.beta.photobucket.com/user/a … sort=3&o=2
http://s252.beta.photobucket.com/user/a … sort=3&o=0
NissanEgg: (2012-12-21 16:05:44)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Nice!!
Can you use these on regular reground cams and valvetrain? Or do you have to use special cams with these?
If we can use these with current cams, what hot/cold lash do you recommend and what kind of gains could one expect to see?
MADMIKE: (2012-12-21 18:27:19)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Nice.
a22770: (2012-12-21 23:56:26)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
You would just use the adjuster to preload the lifter if used on a hydraulic cam. This would allow for more lift on hydraulic lobes as well as solid lifter lobes. I think the hyd cams are limited to about .480" right now due to the limited range the lifter can compensate for change to the base circle. Primary design was for more lift.
G-E: (2012-12-22 00:09:42)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
who's going to make some real roller lifters heh
MADMIKE: (2012-12-22 02:54:03)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
Couldn't you change the ratio of the rocker to "gain" more lift and compensate for the hydro lifters
Careless: (2012-12-23 01:23:24)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
not saying these aren't cool, but there is a lot of weight to be lost in the center of those rockers like Jessel does with their nascar units.
I thought rule #1 of making valve train parts was to make them lighter if you're going to remake them at all.
I've been looking at ways to reduce the weight of the roller lifters I have that should work before going further with developing a working model with cams.
a22770: (2012-12-23 04:48:40)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
I agree, they really could be lighter. I have a set of the jesel rockers for the nash heads, will try to lighten them up in a similar way.
Careless: (2012-12-23 05:07:22)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
now tell us about your machined billet waterpump impellar :-)
G-E: (2012-12-23 05:49:21)
Re: High lift, solid flat tappet, roller rocker conversion k
I thought he had to for the reverse-flow… but either way that would be a nifty upgrade for us vg owners in the correct direction… something profiled like a wing to promote flow and reduce cavitation
stufferton: (2013-02-04 07:43:15)
Any progress on these being lightened up at all yet? I've been VERY interested in this thread since the start, but I know I will kick myself if i splurge just a couple of months shy of a re-vamped version.
Joe87T: (2013-02-04 14:50:21)
Holy Crap! I can't believe I missed this thread, you have a PM
WTMP: (2013-07-03 04:20:49)
Attempting to post up a dyno sheet, for the N/A guys.
Seems the file is a little too big though.
Long story short is 3.0 with the solid conversion and about .510" net lift and 282 duration made 241whp and 222tq through a 33mm single inlet restrictor.
RocklinMike300zx: (2013-07-03 04:42:51)
Wait, are those turbo numbers?
WTMP: (2013-07-03 05:00:44)
N/A through a single 33mm hole
RocklinMike300zx: (2013-07-04 00:05:58)
What other modifications have been done to the engine? I feel like I am overlooking something obvious here but you're talking about a 100whp over stock NA so that's why I'm a bit lost. Would love to see that dyno profile if you can manage to decrease the file size. Could even get the graph and save it as a JPG or GIF.
WTMP: (2013-07-04 07:02:06)
Stock crank, eagle rods, 85e heads ported by me with 1mm ferrea valves (flow 207 at max lift on the intake side), light porting on LIM, 96 mercury villager plenum (plastic or composite, not sure of material) with mod to plenum and larger throttle body, 10.8 to 1 comp, 42lb injectors, 1.5" headers, dry sump three stage. I can email the dyno sheet to you if you think you can post it up. Aaron Kelley aaron.kelley3@gmail.com
G-E: (2013-07-04 07:27:48)
Post it on imgur.com and link it here in a reply using the bbcode it gives you on the right
WTMP: (2013-07-04 07:54:12)
michaelp: (2013-07-04 11:58:36)
What are you using for engine management?
WTMP: (2013-07-05 23:23:02)
pretty sure he is running electromotive standalone
NissanXRMA: (2013-07-06 06:27:21)
Why a larger throttle body if using a restrictor?
G-E: (2013-07-06 07:46:31)
One less restriction?
WTMP: (2013-07-06 22:21:48)
Essentially turning the plenum, throttle body. and 3ft. of 4"intake tube into plenum for delay of the choke point from the restrictor. Long story short it takes longer to evacuate all of that plenum.
G-E: (2013-07-06 23:24:49)
Why is he using a restrictor anyway?
WTMP: (2013-07-06 23:51:31)
SCCA gt-3 rules
michaelp: (2013-07-07 01:43:59)
I want to see dyno without restrictor!
RocklinMike300zx: (2013-07-07 03:59:16)
All I know is that I want that car. Goddamned California ruining all my fun. [archived image: frown.png]
WTMP: (2013-07-07 21:13:01)
I want to see the dyno without the restrictor as well. Also want to chase the cam development a little more. Pipemax estimating that there is still 24cfm that didn't get turned into hp. Might need more header, cam and compression to make it happen. That may be enough to get close to 300 whp N/A. There is also more flow to be had with a port that is maxed out.
stufferton: (2013-07-08 02:07:43)
How far off is a newer version of these looking that's had some weight taken out of them? I am VERY interested in these as an addition to what I've collected so far for my build. Starting to think that the ISKY cams I got with the group buy might be the limiting factor in my build if I get a set of these.
Are you available to PM a bit of ideas back and forth?
WTMP: (2013-07-08 05:13:37)
No lightening as of yet. All the rockers are in motors, no adverse effects so far from the added weight. Will call about next set to see how much more to have a little weight trimmed. Feel free to PM me.
Flacster: (2013-08-20 21:55:44)
Any updates on this?
WTMP: (2013-08-22 23:42:33)
The rockers I have running right now are all full bodied, so far no problems to 7500 rpm. Will see about lightening a set soon.
stufferton: (2013-08-23 00:04:38)
What kind of modifications to the oiling system have been done? just ported auto-turbo pump? Bearings are holding up nicely?
G-E: (2013-08-23 00:25:00)
Non-turbo …
WTMP: (2013-08-23 01:54:30)
Dry sump, oe bearings, stock crank (nitrided)
Tech@EPR: (2015-05-17 03:10:00)
Anyone have any contact info for a22770? Im in need of this rocker kit if he can still supply one. Sorry to bring this up from the dead…he just doesn't have any contact info on his profile page. Anyone maybe know if he has a facebook account etc?
WTMP: (2015-05-19 16:45:13)
A22770is my old screen name. pm sent
HarvesterUT: (2015-05-20 15:17:43)
Has anyone used this kit on a turbo motor? I'm curious to see how it performs.
Tech@EPR: (2015-05-21 05:16:13)
Im fitting this kit to a VG37ETT engine Im buliding. I have a blank set of Nismo Z31 camshafts Im having ground and will be making custom lifters for this application. This is the one thing I need so I can setup proper camshaft profile and lifter details. Aaron I'll give you a buzz tomorrow. Thank you