Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums suspension-chassis-and-brakes/Pics of assembled s13 adapters - review before panicking!
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G-E: (2013-07-06 10:03:26)
One possible orientation, directly aft, hardly any geometry change… would work very nicely orienting the camber plate to also face front to back
Another possible configuration, spun 3/4 of the way forward, if straight forward is 0 degrees, this would be 40-ish… side effect is increased camber gain on turn, best used with camber plates in regular position
Here is the top view of the second style, note that the center point of the original strut tube would be approximately where the shadow for the lower right stud is on the camber plate
Comments?
G-E: (2013-07-06 22:56:20)
Please think harder about that… you're good at doing diagrams, what happens to that second one when the top is moved into position?
G-E: (2013-07-06 23:31:27)
Oh you get it now… and what's going to be the effect of that angle? You're so close cmon [archived image: smile.png]
G-E: (2013-07-07 00:56:41)
I have a proposition for you, if I show you that anything can be negated by either adjustment or some ancillary product like bump correcting tierod ends, you buy a set as punishment [archived image: smile.png]
michaelp: (2013-07-07 01:38:01)
Pretty much every suspension angle looks screwed to me. Z31-specific coilovers, or welding S13 to the spindle like old-school, still remains the best way.
G-E: (2013-07-07 01:43:43)
You said camber would be a problem, here's your camber:
You said the steering angle would be fucked, here's the difference:
G-E: (2013-07-07 01:49:00)
I'm talking millimeters of difference and you guys are still skeptical… did you forget we have adjustable tension rods? adjustable tierods with spacers? camber plates that can be rotated?
Tomakze: (2013-07-07 01:57:14)
Isn't Caster measured from the center of the top of the strut to the center of the wheel? In that case, the angle of the coilover won't affect the Caster, although the angle may cause some other weird things since the pressure on the spring isn't centered. I'm no engineer, but putting angled pressure on a spring may cause slight binding or at least a difference in spring rate. It really shouldn't affect caster, camber or toe though, assuming the hub location is unchanged. If only the coilover is angled, the geometry stays the same.
michaelp: (2013-07-07 01:58:49)
This whole idea…loading the shock incorrectly and such…is about as brilliant as that guy who put S2000 struts on a Z31, loading them in a way they werent designed to be.
G-E: (2013-07-07 02:02:54)
They are not loaded incorrectly, unless every car that uses offset mount points is loading incorrectly, in that case there are >130 million cars loading their suspension incorrectly
michaelp: (2013-07-07 02:04:54)
Put them on a car. Align it and get EVERYTHING in spec. Then go drive it. Write back when the alignment is crap.
Rustspecs13: (2013-07-07 02:05:35)
Clearly you don't really understand suspension if you think / that is ok. You can not tilt the upright to satisfy a ruined upper mounting point. The suspension doesn't work like that.
Since you don't understand why we have such huge problems with your adapter, you simply need to get these on a car, and go to an alignment shop with modern equipment. Take a measurement and see where all the camber, caster, toe, sai, kingpin, included angle, ackerman and all the other angles the machine measures are at. Then compare them to a normal Z31.
~Alex
michaelp: (2013-07-07 02:14:19)
This is the only PROPER way to do this idea…it keeps all of the geometry as intended/
[archived image: IMAG0156.jpg]
Thanks stufferton for knowing what you're doing!
G-E: (2013-07-07 02:18:39)
I'm not going to pay for 5 alignments just to show you various examples because then I'd have to charge $400 per set to make my money back, I'm showing you it's easily done
If you can't wrap your brain around some very simple physics, then don't go fear mongering…
No one has suggested everything will remain identical to a z31 mac-strut setup, no one has suggested the parts will in any way fail from weakness, no one has brought up any geometry issue that can't be counteracted if not desired, all we have is a bunch of people saying they can't see it working out…
If you align the strut to be in line with the kingpin, you could use V2 bumpsteer spacers to move the spindle out to match the distance offset, the camber plate would still work as normal… you will need offset tierods for this setup ideally anyway
Here's some guidelines for the slow:
If you align the strut aft of the kingpin, you can rotate the camber plate to be front to back, and slide the top of the strut rearwards by at least half the distance, which will halve the steering arm tilt as well
If you align the strut 3/4 forward, you can swap the struts left to right to allow the camber plate to move diagonally forward and inward to closely match the offset
The less you lower your vehicle, the less pronounced all the effects, the example I'm showing you is a total unloaded strut height of 20" +/- from kingpin center to camberplate top… if you aren't that low, you will need to adjust less
Likewise the stiffer your springs, the less geometry changes as there is less travel
G-E: (2013-07-07 02:24:00)
I don't disagree, this keeps everything the same, except now you can't get to the adjuster on an inverted coilover, adds cost, can't be configured on the alignment rack before welding
It also can't do anything like increase camber or decrease ackerman…
Rustspecs13: (2013-07-07 02:25:34)
Actually you don't have to pay for an alignment. Just get it checked.
I don't understand how you can try and sell suspension parts you haven't even tried on the street or track with your own car, aligned them and stress/abuse tested them.
I'm a hunter certified alignment tech. I know what Im doing when it comes to alignments. I can and do wrap my brain around simple and advanced suspension physics. Which is why I can align any car you give me. Even a 240sx with everything adjustable, and it nearly un driveable low.
Kimbro Slice: (2013-07-07 02:25:39)
I've never seen someone do that before.
G-E: (2013-07-07 02:29:35)
Not doubting you, I just haven't heard any actual problems stemming from using my adapters, I'm sure you'd have no trouble setting up a car with them
Rustspecs13: (2013-07-07 02:32:43)
Then you haven't read a word Ive said. Or you have, you just don't understand what they mean.
You'd see it for yourself if you had a computer print out. Or it displayed on an alignment machine.
G-E: (2013-07-07 02:39:33)
Next week I should be able to get them on a parts car which is already aligned properly, I'll show you bums pics
NissanXRMA: (2013-07-07 03:02:48)
Remarkably 0/0 people have had a problem with these working.
G-E: (2013-07-07 03:09:46)
No no, that's not it at all… there's many ways to install them, unlike the stance sleeves, and since there are many ways, each way has different effects, some positive and some negative, you can overcome the negative ones in various ways, some require no additional products, the key being you start with which of the positives do you want to have
Let's go back to every modification, just by lowering the car we throw off the inherent steering and camber arc, most people never bother to correct this… the fact that they don't correct it, doesn't mean they don't need additional products to fix it… but no one is complaining about that
NissanXRMA: (2013-07-07 03:27:26)
So with stance sleeves (You did say every modification), at normal ride height, what needs to be fixed again? Nothing. Nothing needs to be corrected since it was designed to work.
Hairyballs: (2013-07-09 04:31:52)
LMAO we should tell formula 1 they have been doing it wrong for years now.
Careless: (2013-07-09 04:54:39)
you're retarded if you think that G-E's fastening method is the only instance of someone using this type of mounting. take a look at an s13 coilover, draw a line from the top nut that holds the assembly together, and see if it crosses the ball joint.
i see the reason why you guys are presuming that because the shock body itself is not in line with the axis on which the assembly itself turns, but in reality, it might NOT screw anything simply because there are other cars using offset strut assemblies that are not in line with where the entire assembly rotates.
[archived image: frontcoil.jpg]
also, its ignorant to say that having to buy a bunch of extra shit to make something work when all you "NEED" to do is buy stance or powertrix and its virtually bolt on with v2 spacers and everything is like stock.
remind me why i would want to install an s13/14 rear end in my z31 if i wanted my suspension to remain stock? if there are certain changes that will improve how comfortable the driver feels with the way it handles, then perhaps some of the "negative" side effects are moot since this setup may provide something a "like stock" setup might not be able to.
creative crit, guys… i get the "test it out first" stuff, but this is more of a "show me something im never gonna put to use cause i barely track my car anyways" discussion just to bust G-E's balls. i have a better idea, why doesn't someone else make an adapter that would turn the base of the strut cartridge 180 degrees if you think that's going to be the biggest issue.
if G-E is wrong, he will post exactly what's wrong here, and i'm sure he will design something new to correct it and the product could still be made and you guys can still enjoy the world of cheaper/used coilovers.
i really don't see what all the fuss is about. he's just gauging interest in the idea of producing an adapter, whether the CURRENT design is flawed was not really the intention of this thread, I don't think.
but whatever.
G-E: (2013-07-09 05:48:27)
At normal ride height, unadjustable adapters I made are off center by much less than what I posted pics of, but my whole argument is that the center can also be moved
If we rotate the adapter to mount the coilover on the aft side, then mount the camber plate longitudinally, it can move the upper mount back to match, AND give you greater turn-in camber without adding static camber… but the people arguing are only focused on the scenario where the mount point hasn't been moved, and therefore there's a tilting effect on the spindle
Lack of vision …
Anyway I spoke to my machinist about making the adapter camber adjustable, and it looks like I have a way that won't increase the cost much, and won't undo itself under hard driving… the only reason I'm adding this adjustability is because it gives you ANOTHER way to adjust it, for even MORE possible configurations
I will still show the skeptics the simple version works however
NissanEgg: (2013-07-09 14:21:21)
http://z31performance.com/attachment…1&d=1373349299
- 2 is correct. Alignment is only affected at the actual pivot points. #3 there is no way for those parts to rotate along that axis, so that assumption is wrong. You can have the strut mounting/connection any place and orientation that you like, as long as pivot points remain in their original spots. Only when you change the actual pivot points like the upper mount or lower ball joint then that affects camber/caster.
You can have high angles of the actual product (strut body) between the pivots granted that you have enough clearance with parts such as high misalignment spacers, spherical ends, and high-angle ball joints and nothing contacts anything stationary like the car body or fenders other suspension parts.
Tempestas: (2013-07-09 16:18:58)
I put this into a suspension analyzer to confirm my thoughts. When you take compression and rebound out of the equation, at rest, the only thing that matters is lower ball joint and upper pillow ball. Everything moves about the imaginary straight line, like "bent" or curved tie rods and control arms, they don't need to be a straight line. If you put these in, and kept the same locations for these points, and installed bump steer spacers to move the tie rod pivot back to the same location due to the angle of the spindle, you would be back and more or less "stock" alignment. Turning the wheels with no suspension travel would keep to same alignment as factory parts. So, at the alignment shop, everything would look the same, as they only adjust and measure alignment at ride height. The thing that changes here is when the strut length changes, as it's extension and compression is not in that imaginary straight line. Dynamically, the wheel will move forward and aft and inboard/outboard based on the angle of the offset strut as is moves when the wheels are turned. This in turn will change various things like caster/camber/and stagger of the wheels. There will also be "bump steer" as the correction initially made due to the angle of the knuckle changing during extension/compression. Also, as you would expect… braking force will transmit into the strut with it angled like that. That being said. These changes dynamically are pretty small, with changes to anti-dive being the biggest. I would suspect that there would be no "noticeable" bump steer or huge changes, negative or positive, to they geometry. That being said, it's still pretty sloppy and I wouldn't do it. I did not, and will not, take the time to use real world numbers to compute the actual change in that setup. I just took a real world strut setup, offset it 5 inches (more than the part shown, as it looks to me) and cycled the suspension through movements to see what changes and how much with this one change to geometry. However, I would estimate anti-dive to change around -20% A car with 100% anti-dive won't dive at all when braking. I don't know what the Z has in factory setup, but a change of -20% or 20% of positive dive force from braking could be significant. Race cars and cars with stiffer than stock suspension don't really need anti-dive like a stock soft suspension car does, but if you did this setup on a stock spring rate Z it would probably make it dive like a caddy. Even with stiff springs, it could hurt braking performance. Excessive negative anti-dive could theoretically cause front wheel hop on braking, ahha.
G-E: (2013-07-09 16:26:46)
Holy crap some sanity finally, thanks [archived image: smile.png]
I will add that knowing the geometry, it's not an anti-dive setup to begin with, the change will be very little as you say
Careless: (2013-07-09 17:10:47)
[archived image: kGIeEH9.gif]
G-E: (2013-07-09 17:33:24)
Angry bench racing hahaha
Hairyballs: (2013-07-09 17:48:40)
look how many things were designed in reality only to succeed.
from flat head fords, to push rod fords to rocker arm and finally cam on bucket now today to electric solenoids that open and close intake valves on the 370Z.
from steam engines, to gas, to diesel to electricand hydrogen.
carbs, throttle body injection, side feed fuel injection, to feed fuel injection, and finally direct injection?
what do all these have in common? when first thought of they failed.
where their failures? of cause but failure does not mean it wont work failure means a method it will not with with much like the S13 front suspension, we are achieving "bolt on coilover" thing here with out all the inherent flaws such as SAI, scrub, caster, camber, roll center, ackerman angle so on an so forth I already have money down on this setup and believe it can work.
Careless: (2013-07-09 17:54:47)
jesus tap-dancing christ, now we're discussing the history of everything in a thread about designing a coil over adapter in relation to how many other things have failed in the history of history…
welcome to z31pessimism.com
Tempestas: (2013-07-09 18:55:20)
First of all… electric solenoids do not open the intake valves on the 370z or any other engine that works (well). VVEL is purely a mechanical in operation with electronics to adjust it like VVT.
Also, all of those things you listed did not come about by engineers do things such as… "well, we have all these pushrods laying around, i guess we will do that instead of overhead cam"
Most new things do go through trial and error. Design and redesign, true.
But that is not the case here at all, this is sticking a round peg with a shiny adapter in a square hole because you have more round pegs than square ones.
You said it best your self. You believe is can work. I believe it can work too. That doesn't mean it will work well, or it is the best way to do it. It certainly is not a flathead ford, or VVEL, or any innovation. It is more like using scraps around Apollo 13 to stave off carbon dioxide poisoning. It worked. Great. That was not the new apparatus to be used in all future spacecraft.
Careless: (2013-07-09 21:58:38)
can we start a new thread and try this shit again?
why the fuck are intake valves even a thought in this thread?
Z_Karma: (2013-07-09 22:10:20)
Says the guy whose previous post in this thread contained only a gif animation of something totally unrelated…
Glass houses man....
G-E: (2013-07-09 22:20:40)
So has any more progress been made on the napkin physics front…?
Or can I say things like a 6k coilover spring will be close to twice as stiff as a regular z31 spring… or how about the fact that on a lowered car, moving the tierod pivot up by 5mm results in more like 1mm of lateral movement.... or how about the coilover mount having a 6:1 ratio of compression to lateral motion, which when reduced by the lever distance becomes closer to 20:1
But go on tell me how 3mm will totally screw up your car…
michaelp: (2013-07-09 22:35:31)
G-E: (2013-07-09 23:00:10)
That "could" is dependent on a lot of things
Tempestas: (2013-07-10 00:24:09)
I'm just going to say, that I think it is highly unlikely that it would be enough to cause wheel hop on braking, just an undesirable side effect to be aware of. I haven't been following closely, what is the problem with running them straight?
G-E: (2013-07-10 00:33:28)
Straight requires putting the mount outside of the z31 strut tube to place the body inline… that adds way too much cost for what this is supposed to achieve
So doing it like the s13, the only issue is the tilt of the mounting bracket and strut tube angle don't allow the exact same strut top location the way I designed the prototypes… the "version 2" will allow you to adjust it, but the axis of motion will be s13-like not z31-like.... some people seem to be deathly afraid of this fact
Tempestas: (2013-07-10 01:09:31)
Ah yeah, I see. Tough one. If it was me, I would want to move the pillow ball inbound as much as possible, run it out of "perpendicular" by changing the angle and deal with a little positive change to camber gain and run a bit more static camber. Lowered Z camber gain sucks to begin with.
MADMIKE: (2013-07-10 01:22:13)
Following thread,
G-E: (2013-07-10 01:32:01)
Well obviously a person getting s13 coilovers can choose to get some with camber plates, but as they just require a little drilling, the plates can be oriented in any direction; then you can rotate the s13 coil to sit behind or nearer the front of the spindle, and use a rotated camber plate to lean the upper pivot towards it
For example, even without camber plates, by mounting the s13 coilover behind, you rotate the spindle forward, then use adjustable tension rods to pull the bottom forward un-rotating it, you can maintain camber and caster
If the coilover is mounted entirely inboard as in the case of the s13, you may or may not have enough camber plate adjustment to give yourself the setting you want, but my final version will allow the mount to adjust static camber as well, so you could increase the camber at the mount, and decrease camber on the plate, this lets you have increasing camber in the turn without looking like a dork driving straight
As someone once said, you can't give z31 owners too much choice, or their heads explode, or something… (I'm paraphrasing slightly)
G-E: (2013-07-10 03:27:36)
My flawed design? I didn't design the offset strut mounting system, go send your nastygram to nissan please
Hairyballs: (2013-07-10 05:23:22)
my cusco coilovers allow for adjustment at the spindle/coil it's designed to have built in adjustable camber if you wish.
Tomakze: (2013-07-10 06:08:52)
Someone posted a pic of an adapter with the mounting points offset so the center of the spring lined up properly earlier… why not make something like that?
Tomakze: (2013-07-10 06:10:24)
Here it is… Why not build this? I doubt anyone would question this…
michaelp: (2013-07-10 06:18:29)
You do realize cars with offset strut systems are DESIGNED for it to work properly…in more ways than what you are doing? The entire spindle design, strut tower design etc. Theres way more to it than what you've done…which is 0% compatible with the Z31.
Do you understand the negative affects running a Z31-style strut/coilover on a S13 would be? It'd be pretty similar to what you're doing here. Everything would be fucked.
michaelp: (2013-07-10 06:18:51)
Thats far too logical and makes way too much sense.
Careless: (2013-07-10 06:24:24)
ok mods. this is your time to step in and tell people to have some tact in their responses or just shut up and wait for the application of the spindle to be tested.
anyone notice how relatively calm and cool G-E is being, despite the negativity surrounding this adapter? i see no reason for the harshness regardless of the function of a screw or an engine or this adapter.
Tomakze: (2013-07-10 06:29:56)
If I were him, at this point I would build that offset design and never look back. With all the time he's spend defending his current design, he could have either redesigned it like the photo, or proved his design works on an actual car, or both! It's pretty obvious most people don't trust it, even if it does work. AKA, won't sell very much.
G-E, I know you feel like no one is giving it a fair chance, but sometimes you have to fight battles on the other side's terms. Either prove it, or change it. If not, resign yourself to the fact that most people will never trust the product, myself included. I'm not trying to get involved, I'm just bored of the pissing contest, and I want to see real proof, one way or the other. I'm genuinely curious how this turns out, and your idea of a bolt on s13 coilover is intriguing!
G-E: (2013-07-10 06:56:40)
Don't worry, I'm getting a lot of encouragement privately, a lot of the products I've produced are in a lot of hands out there, they are just keeping silent for the most part
This thread is kinda like those subframe adapters, previously people had really two choices, figure it out on their own, or get the shamwow kit which requires modifying the subframe, until I came along with a kit that requires modifying the car instead… the same types of arguments were thrown around then too, and I still sold quite a few sets, including the last of my prototype pieces just this week, what does that tell you? Don't always believe the vocal minority [archived image: wink.png]
I know there are some real issues to resolve, and throwing them on a car to show the bums will still not satisfy all of them, but that was never the point, not everyone is the target market
Z_Karma: (2013-07-10 07:14:58)
For fucks sake..mod /= babysitter and tact is relative.
Stay on topic please.
Careless: (2013-07-10 07:22:51)
ok. so next time you post anything- i'm going to shit all over your thread and tell you how fucked up it is without just waiting it out to see how it turns out. cool? cool.
self-moderating board = win.
Rat1314: (2013-07-10 11:14:38)
I like the idea. I can see with a bit of tweaking it might work as intended and I hope it does. Sure it might not be 'perfect' but none of the other coilover options are either. I'll just be sitting back waiting to see a alignment sheet, if it fails then it's not like everyone is out of pocket, only G-E.
adroitcaptor: (2013-07-10 11:30:51)
Pardon my ignorance by why could GE [or someone else] not take any 'offset' strut assembly [like off a maxima] from the JY, hack up up progressively, measuring at each step, using the test piece GE already made? Is the attempt not to simply prove the geometry variance? Seems that would answer all the questions would it not?
Or, someone could sit down and simply draw it out with proper measurements. (I know it would take some time.)
…Am I missing something?
IMO 'we' should all work together to find a more universal design. Something that is easy to pick up, cheap, etc.(Similar to the rear camber fix [garry molitar?] came up with.) How nice would it be to go down to the JY, pick up a common LCA, grab a jig/template, modify a bit, and have a better suspension… just sayin.
It is pretty lame all the hacking people are doing on GE. Whether you agree with him or not, I fail to see the benefit of the negativity. Criticism is fine but to what end does it serve to destroy ideas? I would assume we only stand to gain something. Go team? lol No really, my father did a TON of design/patent work for a tech company. There is definitely a benefit to that type of mind. If we do not explore the possibilities, even when seemingly ridiculous, we will be forever stuck with mediocrity. JMO
adroitcaptor: (2013-07-10 11:33:13)
^QFT
The pursuit of truth [improvement] stops when that person allows their bias to dictate the possibility of truth [improvement]. - dan 10Jul2013
Hairyballs: (2013-07-10 13:05:56)
that is the mind set with this community they are scared of change this is the reason EPR stopped making specific Z31 stuff. this community would much rather stick to roof racks and hellastance cars then actually TRY to make improvements on the chassis they have.
michaelp: (2013-07-10 13:24:26)
There are making improvements, then completely destroying front suspension geometry. Z31-specific coilovers, or even doing the adapters like posted in a picture previously, dont hurt geometry. I support him developing new stuff. However, this specific design is pretty crappy and hes too dense to listen to anyones advice. He lacks so much confidence in his work, his own car has STANCE Z31 coilovers.
But being an ass aside, he asked for what people thought of it. Hes turning what could be constructive criticism initially into an argument because he just argues back that theres no way any of the issues will be there even though hes never actually tested it. /discussion. I'm done. He can make them, I'll just keep doing it the proper way.
adroitcaptor: (2013-07-10 14:18:18)
Mike, you got to let people fail though bro. Part of his learning process is the process. How we communicate affects how our opinion is received (basic human psychology). If those opposed do not approach the issue tact, but from his point attack the issue, there is nothing to be gained. [/epicphilosophycommas] So, if the point was to answer his query for thoughts than so be; if it was for the aforementioned plus progression to positive result - our approach needs to change. You would agree?
I am with you on the basic geometry issue (i think). Everything is cool until you change from a static 'straight forward' rest position, every subsequent movement you adjust the suspension dynamically. I think there is a slightly better way(s) than the option previously posted (the one you mentioned. That said, as someone who will never take the time to design it, on you guys.
I am not trying to be all touchy feely here. Rather I am attempting to speak from a 'community' prospective. Why not push for the best result (allowing for failure/learning)?
Again, my goal would be a major redesign with down to earth implementation.
meh my 0.02
I also am done.
GL GE
Careless: (2013-07-10 15:28:49)
ok brother, you went from being a douche bag to being a bigot based on the FACT that he bought STANCE coilovers before even producing this adapter. You and az paul need to stop this fucking shit right now because its THE biggest reason why this forum is becoming shittier with each day.
Hairyballs: (2013-07-10 15:54:00)
+1
I'm in support for this. say you end up in a front end collision where someone HITS YOU! your 1500 coilover is now trash your sleeve is trash and your spindle is bent, i doubt you could order a coilover and sleeve individually vs cutting the old sleeve (I.E GE'S design) out rewelding it on a new spindle and then grabbing some garbage coilovers to get you by for the time being. or perhaps you slam into a curb or hit some object to bend the spindle.
maybe even throwing on stock S13 suspension just to get you by.
what if you want to swap to SPL coilovers but you cant because your running a sleeve that the thread pitch doesn't line up? vs grabbing a set of SPL S13 coilovers.
the S13 sleeve idea WONT just work for the Z31 it will be a solution for the S30/S130 and S12 chassis. perhaps the design can be improved but you cant beat the man for trying to think out side of the box while most of you THINK IN IT! thats why community do not make improvements such as this one addition to that Z31 owners are cheap.
"hey guys lets make a group buy for exhaust manifolds for the Z31" 11 people so okay and only 1 or 2 pay up when the time comes.
but if you say "Z31 stickers promise to make you shift faster and get faster lap times" everyone jumps on it…
Hairyballs: (2013-07-10 16:10:03)
^ like you said do you think stance or PT will sell you an individual coilover? i dont think so.
jaqattack02: (2013-07-10 17:56:02)
Of course they would, what reason would they have not to? A decent business is going to support it's customers. If they didn't I think the support for them would dry up very very quickly.
Careless: (2013-07-10 18:00:51)
not saying they would or wouldn't, but verify that kind of information before you put blind faith into any company or reassure someone that they do something that you don't know for SURE if they do or not.
i mean, koeniggsegg makes "awesome" cars, but they have shit service as far as providing for their customers who dish out close to a million dollars for a car.
don't assume.
and replacing one coilover was probably never even a discussion point when making these adapters, so it's probably not important.
jaqattack02: (2013-07-10 18:46:53)
I'm not promising anyone anything. All I said is what reason would they have not to? That assumes of course that they still have stock of the unit needing replacing.
Careless: (2013-07-10 19:02:00)
Because not many people buy z31 coilovers to begin with, so having extra sets they can break into ones and twos makes no sense at all except for when their product fails under cover of their quality guarantee/warranty- and I have no idea how often those situations occur.
But I'm not going to assume. If I really wanted to know I would call them and ask. They might sell a single or even outright replace it if they feel good on that day, but assuming they have no reason not to is naive.
Apple has no reason not to replace a cheap LCD screen panel on a broken macbook since it costs around 30-50 dollars on a 2000+ dollar item, because that would allow the customer to continue using the computer and buying apps from the app store and songs from iTunes, which they make money on… but Apple customer service can be abysmal sometimes.
Anyways. it has nothing to do with the adapter G-E is making. This adapter isn't only for cheap-ass coilovers. There are coilovers that are way more expensive than Stance items that one might aquire for a good price and be able to put to use.
jaqattack02: (2013-07-10 19:03:36)
Already emailed them to ask.
G-E: (2013-07-11 00:43:25)
I find it funny that people dare even bring up the fact that I made stance sleeve z31 spindles, I bought the stance kit didn't I? With my resources I could have done something with double a-arms with moton coilovers, but I "supported my community"… Oh and I didn't get powertrix coilovers not just because they weren't first to have shipping product, but also because I didn't see them as superior, green vs bronze is not a kicker for me
But I do find it highly amusing that powertrix coilovers were supported so well, when countless other occasions I heard people complain about saturating markets, driving vendors/suppliers away with TOO MUCH competition.... some of the same people who argued against competition, supported powertrix, when according to their own mindset, they should've have supported stance
But powertrix can't feel too bad, I paid the full amount for the wing upfront to help the group buy happen, so I did support them too, and even with the actual defective batches shipped out, they got FAR LESS criticism than my coilover adapters which haven't even been shown defective… hypocrites or space shuttle engineers?
If you guys want choice, ANY choice in aftermarket, start being more constructive and less elitist…
Without jason mashing an s13 coilover into a z31 spindle, we wouldn't even have a coilover market, you'd all be arguing about the next repro st springs and groupbuy of shocks.... without tempestas and butter doing subframe swaps years ago, pioneering the way, you'd all be futzing around with those weld on tabs to your subframes for camber adjustment…
I know mikep thinks the z31 is perfect, but holy crap, there's plenty of road racing and drifting s-chassis cars with "screwed up geometry", poor fools, winning races, how can they live with themselves?
Hairyballs: (2013-07-11 01:10:57)
I take everything mike p says like a grain of salt from a honda owner. deff better platforms out there for the money like a miata would shit on the Z in the corners. and a turbo 350hp miata is pretty cheap compared to what's spent on our cars.
michaelp: (2013-07-11 01:11:34)
I think you missed the part where THE ENTIRE S13 SUSPENSION AND CHASSIS was designed for off-set mounted struts, which is why it works on them. The Z31 suspension is not. You yourself said it needs a ton of other stuff to work. I'm soooo sorry the way I suggested you do this would then work without needing roll center adjusters and a ton of other crap.
-.-
michaelp: (2013-07-11 01:13:12)
There are multiple Z31s that are running with and beating miatas in tight autocross. lololol
For the money? I can't think of any better platforms. Z31s are cheap and definitely have a great bang for the buck.
I've owned multiple supposed (by fanboys who have never owned them and just drool over want) "better platforms". They really arent much better. People assume better on hearsay because they think the Z31 is some horrible chassis simply because its from the 80s and not a E30, FC or Supra…all cars that, in the 80s, were proved to be inferior…but now everyone thinks are better cars. They're also cars that do great in autocross and such. -.-
Hairyballs: (2013-07-11 01:16:52)
so mike p tell me how many 700hp VG30ET's are there roaming the streets of newyork? i can name a hand full of 2jz's rb's, Vh's and VQ's. [archived image: smile.png]
shit how many 700hp VG30Et's have there been in the life of the vg existing? 1 maybe 2 with WWR. laughable at best.
350hp miata vs 350hp z31 mod for mod you get more out of the miata, the z31 will win in the straights but thats about it.
michaelp: (2013-07-11 01:18:42)
A 350whp miata requires an engine swap or $4,000+ worth of machine work and aftermarket internals. 350whp Z31 is nistune, a set of DSM injectors and an upgraded stock turbo. Also, I'm so sorry you think Z31s can't handle well because you have a stock automatic non-turbo. lol
I'm not going to argue with new people who are just reading things on the internet about how great miatas are and assuming they're king at handling.
P.S. The VG set land speed records and broke into 7s in the 1/4 before the JZ, VH or VQ even existed. And the RB is essentially an Inline version of the VG, so try again?
Hairyballs: (2013-07-11 01:20:53)
just by suspension design honda civic and miata have a better suspension setup.
do you also by chance think a Z31 will out corner a R35 GT-R GT1 v8 race car too? [archived image: smile.png] lmao
G-E: (2013-07-11 01:21:15)
You missed the part where it WASN'T.... all the objections you guys brought up are things the s13+ guys have to deal with, have you ever seen the camber curve on a lowered s13 mike?
1sikz: (2013-07-11 01:27:01)
Sorry to inform you, but there have been way more than one or two. Shit, the pond racer plane had two 1000 hp VG30et's alone, not to mention the numerous Electramotive race cars, the Nismo road cars, etc.
Careless: (2013-07-11 02:02:00)
oh coooooooooooool… the pond racer shows up at the local sonic burger joint on saturday nights using the drive-through as a landing strip??? and the electramotive cars show up at ihop during the vintage car shows on thursdays with the nismo boys? you must be soooooo lucky to see them! *swoons*
he CLEARLY said roaming the streets, dood.
jesus94p: (2013-07-11 02:47:37)
lulz
my time slip from time attack. compare times to the miatas and other cars that day. I'm under flat black z…
Please tell me how a miata can be better than my 400 dollar turd on home built coils. Go on.
But back on topic. In to see what happens
G-E: (2013-07-11 02:50:20)
"Juan gay evo" haha
Hairyballs: (2013-07-11 03:03:58)
the miata was probably on springs and shocks not even coils believe me a miata with coilovers and a properly set suspension will destroy a Z31.
the miata is 1,000 pounds lighter and only makes 110hp im not impressed get a miata with the same power as the Z both with identical drivers and suspension setup and i promise you it will leave your butt hole burning from no lube.
by the way 1 - 3 seconds is ALOT of time thats not even close times.
jesus94p: (2013-07-11 03:06:59)
I bet if you were to put proper coilovers on this car it would eat those miatas alive. My car is not on proper coilovers. Oh and those miatas were on coilovers.
Careless: (2013-07-11 03:20:11)
then the drivers suck.
michaelp: (2013-07-11 03:26:15)
Typical Z31 owner "my car sucks" shit…because they've only ever driven stock Z31s. P.S. Miatas are only about 600-700lbs lighter than Z31s....not 1000
Hairyballs: (2013-07-11 03:28:41)
agreed. i was a passenger on a miata with just springs and a good driver dude it left me with an empty hole on how my Z drives, no matter what i can't make it match that miata in performance it had me breaking my neck, the driver wasn't even trying. no matter thiers a big advantage in weight if you dont realize that then your no better then they are.
a 350hp miata vs a 350hp z31 turbo both set up with the same mods will eat the z31 alive. even then the miata only has 118hp dont feel so proud because a 140hp miata will rape you like no tomorrow no matter what you do the Z31 is a longer car and will not be as nimble as the miata.
Careless: (2013-07-11 03:51:28)
so can i say that's a typical "z31 is the best car evar" mikep comment?
i admire your passion for the z31's, but it's not the end all and be all of cars.
given a choice of comparably priced/capable bases to use for a car that would actually be competitive amongst other similarly modified vehicles, the z31 would not be near the top of the list, but not the bottom either.
i won't reserve my judgement either, because other than the slow RB26 powered Z31, I have not seen anything race-ready compete at tsukuba or any other notable track (80's nissan race program not included. I'm talking privateer builds here), so I'd have to default to something I know is capable of more than what's been shown thus far.
when someone shows me a track prepped z31 that can hold its own, i will change my mind.
And no, Russ' car doesn't count. it's so far back in the pack of cars I'm thinking of, that I figured I'd make that point before someone starts saying "zomg russ will drive circles round'joo!" like i'm supposed to give a shit.
i still like z31's. but im not afraid to admit that other cars "can" and "are" "better".
michaelp: (2013-07-11 04:02:31)
The z31s wheelbase is barely 2" longer than a miatas…and it has a wider track, giving it more stability. Would you like to try again? You have a stock NA. Your opinion of a good handling z31 is invalid.
michaelp: (2013-07-11 04:03:24)
I read "blah blah blah my z has stock springs idk what im talking aboot"
Parker: (2013-07-11 04:09:39)
Your cup runneth over with Win.
Careless: (2013-07-11 04:16:30)
so mike has powertrix coilovers and all of a sudden people can't have an educated opinion on the competitiveness of track-ready z31's vs. other chassis that people actively modify for time attack and actually exist (whereas z31's barely do in that regard).
cup runeth over with douche-baggery and close-mindedness, maybe.
michaelp: (2013-07-11 04:20:09)
Your opinion isnt educated on z31 handling/experience. Yours has stock springs and…kyb gas adjusts? yup. Tell me again about your awesome miata racecar too.
Careless: (2013-07-11 04:23:44)
you must be blind, because i never mentioned miatas. i mentioned you being a fucking douche bag.
its not about z31's, it's about more than z31's.
but in your world, that's all that exists.
michaelp: (2013-07-11 04:25:44)
Ive owned yotas…and s30s and s130s…and 2 z32s....hondas. lolol
Parker: (2013-07-11 04:33:37)
It's funny you'd say that.
Careless: (2013-07-11 04:34:52)
- slow clap*
and you are still a bigot, disrespectful to people who are showing no disrespect to you personally, and borderline offensive.
but i'm not going to be a panzie about it. I'll just wait for you to cross the wrong individual in person who doesn't tolerate your shit, who will then take all the collective horsepower of the cars you've owned, and dyno test it on your face.
oh wait. you're not like that in person. riiiiiiiight. makes perfect sense.
Careless: (2013-07-11 04:36:18)
being someone who is showing no bias in this thread, and allowing G-E to take his time in producing them and testing them- I guess it would be funny, wouldn't it.
if i've ever been close-minded i'd like to know. douche-bag? maybe… but close-minded- no.
Parker: (2013-07-11 04:41:40)
A little homophobia goes a long way.
G-E: (2013-07-11 04:55:57)
Is this even my thread anymore? haha
Careless: (2013-07-11 05:00:07)
not at all. it was dead before it started because z31 users can't be constructive.
if you need a test car, we can probably mount it on the front pass side of my car because it's accessible in my garage or something.
G-E: (2013-07-11 05:13:55)
That might be a good idea, YOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUU have a decent digi cam we can use
Careless: (2013-07-11 05:16:36)
I have a fuji x100 that we can use until I give it back, or I have my father's D3000 because I sold my D300.
soooo we should be ok. I think everything should come apart relatively because I copa-slipped everything all the time.
i r teh noobz: (2013-07-11 05:19:25)
All test car pictures must be taken with a cell phone.
I'm very interested in how this turns out. It seems like a simple idea, but I don't know enough about suspension dynamics/geometry to pass judgement.
FoxZ: (2013-07-11 06:08:37)
Careless, for the record, you are the one being a douchebag by talking shit about other people on the forums. And also, I'm not fake in any way, and neither is our relationship. So do everyone a fucking favor and stop posting.
Careless: (2013-07-11 06:09:44)
im not talking shit about anyone, but thanks for coming out of the shadows to express your love for michaelp. i love him too.
FoxZ: (2013-07-11 06:10:47)
I've never been in the shadows about it.
Careless: (2013-07-11 06:12:06)
well thanks for coming out and defending your boyfriend, either way.
he needs a defence lawyer, apparently- since he can't make a good case for himself.
but ehhhhhhh whatever. girl with a z car is talking. everyone shut up now.
G-E: (2013-07-11 06:14:39)
Catfight reeeaaaaawwwwooorrrrr!
Careless: (2013-07-11 06:15:21)
i bite my nails, so i can't scratch. severe disadvantage.
FoxZ: (2013-07-11 06:18:40)
You just come on here and start talking crap about z31's to people who
Careless: (2013-07-11 06:21:47)
i did not talk crap about z31's. i love both my z31's and my 280z i also had. but thanks for comin' to play the poo flingin game.
Hairyballs: (2013-07-11 06:22:00)
guys i think it's enough seriously. GE and careless let us know how this turns out, I have really high hopes it will work out just as expected.
maybe not Z31 stock but who even uses the stock geometry on anything other then a stock car.
FoxZ: (2013-07-11 06:24:38)
Yeah, you basically made an assumption about how they handle when you are driving a stock car. Maybe I'm wrong here but have you driven one that didn't have a 25+ year old suspension?
Careless: (2013-07-11 06:28:08)
no, i've driven other cars that have better stock performance AND also have a better aftermarket than z31's. a comparison between two stock cars is a good place to start. which is why i said there are better cars to use as a base for anything competitive. keeping a "stock geometry" is exactly what I am NOT doing with my Z31. which is why I don't care for any of the points made by the naysayers who intend to spend money to keep it that way.
[archived image: smile.png]
but whatever. bias is bias.
FoxZ: (2013-07-11 06:28:56)
so how about you sell your z31 to someone who actually appreciates it?
Hairyballs: (2013-07-11 06:31:30)
builds a Z31 race car… keeps factory nissan oem suspension geometry. seems legit.
Careless: (2013-07-11 06:32:37)
uhhhhhh. ok? i mean i CLEARLY did a v-mount setup, a vg33 build, or a hybrid turbo because i seriously hate this car.
you don't know me from anywhere, so it's funny you would presume such things.
Tomakze: (2013-07-11 06:38:06)
MikeP has a girlfriend? AND SHE OWNS Z CARS! *Checks to see if sky is falling* Honestly though, that's cool.
But seriously, this thread brings out the worst in everyone. Even me. I just want to know if the damned adapters work or not…
G-E, I honestly wish you luck.
G-E: (2013-07-11 06:39:21)
Yea I remember hearing a lot of naysayers arguing that holsets are garbage, because they are just inefficient truck turbos.... and 2 years later, it's suddenly accepted as a cheap alternative to a 60-1 or gt35 or something
The hypocrisy oooooozes like rancid molasses around here…
Oh and next time someone makes a thread about changing the sacred z31, and you immediately get incensed because you think it's perfection incarnate, DON'T OPEN IT
Careless: (2013-07-11 06:41:32)
Not only that. but you've been in my car with the holset on 9psi and it was a fun ride. I mean… I had fun. but i guess I hate this car too much to admit it according to some people. Will you buy it from me? I'm not worthy.
michaelp: (2013-07-11 06:43:27)
Next time you make a thread asking for peoples opinions/reviews, don't get pissed when its not what you wanted to hear.
Careless: (2013-07-11 06:44:42)
next time think about a more civilized way to go about it rather than barbarically telling people their design is "flawed". [archived image: smile.png] see how this works.
michaelp: (2013-07-11 06:46:39)
Keep putting words in peoples mouths. I never said that. lol
[archived image: biggrin.png]
G-E: (2013-07-11 06:46:43)
I have some 25yr old bushings you can appreciate, just pay shipping?
Hairyballs: (2013-07-11 06:48:54)
I love my Z31 with all my heart and i constantly throw money at it like a stripper but that doesnt mean i don't enjoy it. The difference is I KNOW my car is not the best for the money i have in mine i could have bought and evo and be just as fast as anyone here round a truck or a subaru or a turbo miata their are better platforms out there but i love my Z31 and choose to improve the chassis because it's a type of addiction you get from making it better then it was from the factory.
i know and acknowledge the weaknesses of the Z31 and want to improve those points I.E Z32 rear multilink suspension and a complete suspension overhaul because thats a weak point for the Z31's. some people like bone stock cars. but ffs it's Z31 PERFORMANCE for a reason.
Careless: (2013-07-11 06:51:24)
yawwwwwwwwwwn
Hairyballs: (2013-07-11 06:54:24)
i have a friend with a 85 turbo white Z it's holset hx35 he has bits here and there, it is a quick Z with only 10psi. he spikes to 14psi but it's still fast, i was behind him when he pulled 1 and a half cars on a 2012 challenger R/T. iI'm surprised he's swapping to something smaller.
michaelp: (2013-07-11 06:56:34)
Hence billet steel quick-steer/angle increasing steering knuckles that were a project of a few of us who commented on this thread.
Back on topic, G-E. I'm interested to see it aligned and tested. Good luck!
G-E: (2013-07-11 07:11:47)
Ok so are we done with this thread? Let's lock 'er up until the next flamewar! Probably sometime saturday
Careless: (2013-07-11 07:14:27)
is that when you're coming by? im sick on saturday, though.
Tomakze: (2013-07-11 07:18:24)
+1
G-E: (2013-07-11 07:35:48)
Actually let me leave these here for pondering minds