Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums suspension-chassis-and-brakes/Alternative S/Z/Q subframe swap adapter kit
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G-E: (2012-09-18 08:32:06)
4140HT pins, mild steel brackets… pins have a 1" collar for centering in a steel plate, so when you weld it shouldn't move
2 pins + 2 pins with brackets = $210 shipped
4 pins with brackets = $255 shipped
(Nuts not included)
[archived image: gzR6H.jpg]
Spooledup300z: (2012-09-18 10:23:13)
Are you making these? Looks good
G-E: (2012-09-18 11:55:49)
Yes, made to order 1-2wks from money to product…
michaelp: (2012-09-18 14:14:36)
Looks good man! This only covers the rear part though from the looks of it. MikeG's had the stuff to modify the subframe to fit the front mounts too, are you planning on doing something for that too or just this and leaving that up to the person doing the swap?
G-E: (2012-09-18 20:23:37)
No you modify the car to fit the subframe… aside from a little grinding for clearance
The option of 4 with brackets means the rear two are slip on and bolt/weld in, the front two you can grind and shape however you like to make them fit, plenty of metal to weld with that's 3/16" plate (5mm)
RXGhost: (2012-09-18 21:10:15)
Interesting do you have an install pic of body of the car with these front pins installed?
did you have to add a lot of metal to the body or just grind a spot down?
does it require any reinforcement since the pin is moved 2-3 inches back and towards the center
G-E: (2012-09-18 23:07:21)
Sorry no pics, but there is a frame section there, look at the numerous pics on the swap threads you'll see it
Honestly if you can fabricate the rest, notch the frame etc, the front won't be a challenge [archived image: smile.png]
michaelp: (2012-09-18 23:39:40)
Most of the stuff in the swap threads have subframes that have been extended in the front to retain the OE Z31 front mount location....
G-E: (2012-09-19 00:11:05)
And they have lovely pictures of the frame above it mike, then someone just has to use their head pasta to piece the two images together
K_Scheeringa: (2012-10-18 17:07:57)
PM me cost shipped to Brampton Ontario L6T 4M3.
Thanks
I just noticed your in Ontario..
PM me cost if i swing by and pick them up..
G-E: (2012-10-19 22:59:34)
I'm gong to put in another order for these next week, does anyone else want a set made?
Butter: (2012-10-21 01:28:52)
Are you going to make the rest of the kit?
Careless: (2012-10-21 01:42:42)
correct me if i'm wrong.
you mounted yours by purchasing a nissan s14 rear frame bar with the studs.
you also welded steel collars/tubing to the ends of the s14 subframe bushing holes.
i.e. - you didn't need a kit, you only needed the rear studs as the most integral part.
this is what the currently offered kit accomplishes.
does there really need to be a "rest" for those who can think something up?
Butter: (2012-10-21 02:03:20)
You're wrong.
The rear mounting was done last. It was accomplished in 15min by drilling throught the car and installing allthread (which I later reinforced).
The front mounting took an entire day and multiple revisions.
Careless: (2012-10-21 02:06:09)
ohhhhhhhh. my bad. i vaguely remember someone making a comment about buying the rear main bar new from nissan, and it was rusted. then made a comment about the nature of new old stock parts being like that when you live in the salt belt.
could have been someone else.
still. anyone waiting or installing another subframe (350z maybe) can fab up something themselves.
no problem with that option. they don't need the rest of the "kit".
G-E: (2012-10-21 05:22:00)
If you can do this swap, you don't need more than this kit… although it is easier with all 4 pins with brackets for novice welders
G-E: (2012-11-03 03:41:51)
One off sale time!
The pic you see in the first post, I am selling that kit as-is except nyloc nuts and washers included. $160 shipped
If I have any more confirmed orders, I will be producing a small run of 4-5 kits, with all pins having brackets, using regular steel not hardened stainless, these kits will run approx. $220+ship
I will ask for deposits (like a group buy) before having them made, or have your loved ones buy them for you for christmas!
G-E: (2012-11-10 10:50:08)
Just as I expected, everyone is all talk, no swap…
It's almost winter, great slow-motion project to work on until spring! :P
brewster240: (2012-11-11 01:57:38)
pics of products installed sell products.
E-Z: (2012-11-17 12:54:18)
not really, its not a hard idea to grasp, these items looks top notch, well done
G-E: (2012-12-29 19:20:23)
A little bump, I am behind on a few things, including doing the subframe swap, but if anyone wants I have some other machining I need to get done, I can have some of these sets made…
You can also have any thread M20 or smaller (ie. 3/4-16) down to M14 if you want… last set I had made was 5/8-18 thread (have lots of those flange nuts around)
For those who keep bugging me about the lack of pics, I won't have any for a few weeks, but if you can do this swap, you won't need pics
zmainiac: (2013-02-26 03:13:03)
I am ready with money in hand. Tried to pm u but got no reply. Let me know if they are still available and i will send money
G-E: (2013-03-01 19:31:11)
I might be able to push yours through as a rush order, I have to go see them soon with some money, people are much more compliant when there's money involved [archived image: wink.png]
G-E: (2013-03-10 23:29:15)
zmaniac yours is shipping out tuesday [archived image: smile.png]
G-E: (2013-03-24 02:44:48)
New prices $325 shipped for 4 pins with brackets…
Thread pitch is up to you, 3/4-16 is the largest you'd likely want, and you wouldn't want to go below M14 sized thread, so if you're a purist and insist on metric, no problem, so long as it's M14-M18…
G-E: (2013-07-27 21:41:53)
Bump, have orders for a few pieces… anyone else want a set made? Can have them shipping in under 2 weeks
$165 shipped for a pair of pins with brackets if you want to do your own front mounts using the bushing sleeves like butter
G-E: (2013-09-19 11:50:29)
2 pairs of pins with brackets 5/8-16" thread with flange nuts ready to ship!
Spooledup300z: (2013-09-19 15:32:31)
GE, I have to commend you for your ingenuity, although your dealing with z31 owners here man. Alot of talk and keyboard fabricators. Very little doers.
Just curious how many have you sold?
G-E: (2013-09-19 15:39:42)
I've had 8 customers for these so far… one bought 4 pins with brackets, and one bought only 2 pins without brackets since they made their own box frame, the majority bought a pair with brackets
Does that help? [archived image: smile.png]
I'm going to be running off some sleeves to use to adapt to the z31 subframe pins in the stock location, like butter did, but with new parts not burnt out old bushing sleeves… 10 pieces coming soon
Spooledup300z: (2013-09-19 17:40:08)
Well that good that people are buying them. Maybe there is some hope for us z31 guys
G-E: (2013-09-19 19:20:20)
I've seen pics from 3 projects in progress using my parts, but I couldn't point you to any that I know have completed the swap
From what I gather it was much the same with shamwow's kit, people bought it, but the number of subframe swapped vehicles didn't correlate…
G-E: (2014-01-12 01:41:41)
Back in stock with M20x1.5 threads… same as those big yellow lock nuts on the axle stubs, p/n: 43262-01P10
New price, 2 pins with berackets as above, plus 2 sleeves for the front to weld to… $190 shipped
ShamWow: (2014-01-15 21:28:52)
Nice design copy.
Those are welded assemblies right? I would strongly suggest against 4140HT as the embrittlement which happens during welding will be difficult to avoid. Weld can look good, but a sharp impact (like from sliding into a curb) will snap it like nothing was there.
G-E: (2014-01-16 01:47:13)
The pins are captive, even if the weld did break, it wouldn't go anywhere…
They have a double-stepped diameter, one to center in the bracket hole (1"), and another step up on the on the back side (1-1/2"), the weld mainly stops it from turning
ShamWow: (2014-01-16 04:05:40)
Unless the welding HAZ causes it to shear at the stress riser: the step from the main guide diameter to the attachment 1" diameter. I mean why risk it?
G-E: (2014-02-14 06:22:43)
As you probably all know by now, I made the subframe swap kit to make life easier, so easy that, all you neeeeed is a measuring tape, a pencil, a grinder, and a welder (with appropriate safety precautions for all of that)
After changing my mind about the reversibility (I'll explain later), the combination I chose for my car consists of 2 pins with U-brackets and two z31 pin sleeves… since there's several ways to do this, this is one of them.
Let's start with the rear installation:
[archived image: subframe-rear1.jpg]
What you should notice here is that each bracket has holes in it, it is entirely possible to bolt the rear U-brackets onto the car prior to welding, or even permanently. However, they don't interfere with anything, so the added stiffness of welding them in just makes more sense. The holes are 14mm btw.
The bushings I used are the two-piece as sold by ISIS, but I got replicas from http://bings.ca since he's local. I then proceeded to have the recessed half heads shaved down to 5mm, and put those on top (normally they go on the bottom, the recess is to allow more thread engagement for the nut, since the fat head spaces the whole subframe down more than stock bushings)
You can see washers installed under the z31 axle-flange nuts, but those were used by the shop to avoid having to tighten those nuts all the way, they are lock nuts, and the hardened threads of the pin are a tough squeeze; they don't have to be there.
The pins with brackets were inserted into the installed subframe bushings, then tightened in the subframe prior to raising into position; the position was found by marking the center of the car, and the center of the subframe, that's it…
Now let's move onto the scary front installation:
[archived image: subframe-front1.jpg]
You may think this would be a hugely difficult step, but it's not; the welded plate shape you see is about 3" long, you need one for top, one for bottom, and two rectangles for the sides, that's it. (repeat for other corner)
Bolt the sleeve onto the pin, cut the bushing pod on the subframe halfway through, lift it into place, weld bottom piece and outer side on to connect them, remove subframe, do the other half… the pieces used were cut with a hand grinder from 1/8" steel plate.
In my case,the fabricator decided to bend up the top pear shaped piece to meet the end of the sleeve at the top, you may have seen other writeups that show the sleeves are taller than the subframe pods, so keeping those plates level would have left about 1cm of sleeve protruding above. It doesn't matter which way you do this, the sleeves have 1/4" wall thickness, and using 1/8" plate for the connectors, it is as rigid as the subframe.
At this point I should mention, the non-reversible way to do the front is not anymore difficult, in fact it might be easier…
You'd need a second pair of pins with U-brackets, where you cut off or unbend one side to form an L (unbending will be impossible without carefully making cuts in the corner and rewelding it solid, it's 5mm plate)… just above where the pin needs to be to use the new subframe without modifying, there is a union of two frame sections, they create a corner that the new L bracket would overlap; the newly flattened part would be welded there, while the remaining bent tab would have to be gusseted to the body and frame inside the corner.
If those two-piece solid bushings are used, the fat end would be put on top, with the recessed one on the bottom, as it was designed, because the front pin would sit a little higher than ideal, therefore needs a little spacing down.
The one part I didn't talk about is all the cutting/hammering involved in clearancing the subframe to the body, that's where the real work is, there's a lot of areas that need to be cut and re-boxed to regain strength, doing this will require numerous test fits, raising and lowering the whole assembly… this is probably 70% of the work involved in the swap.
It's easy to see why a shop will charge you more than you think it will cost, it's about $20 in materials, the rest is labour… I've heard estimates from people who have completed the swap, at 14hrs to 30hrs to complete it.
You may need to ask someone who's completed it, "is it worth it?", and I think most of them will say "hell yes" [archived image: smile.png]
Bushings used (same design):
[archived image: isis-bushings1.jpg]
Pauls: (2014-02-19 07:57:34)
G-E good to see you continue to innovate.
I was following ShamWow's conversion kit for some time and was fortunate to get my hands on one.
It does take some time to get your head around it, and feel that his kit resulted in a close to factory finish.
Not for the faint hearted, you really gotta love your z31 to put in this much effort/hours.
From memory I paid under $360 for all the bits landed in Australia.
The bigger front bushings on ShamWow's kit also add to this and allowed me to use all the original gear when hooking up front mounts.
Here's my build with pics of the s15 subframe both out and in car; http://www.zdriver.com.au/index.php/…t__20#entry349
G-E: (2014-02-19 08:58:11)
Looks like you welded in a ton more metal than necessary to do the swap, especially at the rear frame section.
The kit I'm offering is the bare essentials, because I make the assumption that if someone can weld it all up, they can cut some scrap plates to finish off the front, either with the sleeves, or by installing 4 pins in the correct locations for the subframe…
The ONLY reason I didn't install the 4 pins myself, is to give myself the option of developing a new stock subframe based rear end, without having to use my road car to do it.
Pauls: (2014-02-19 11:51:54)
yeah introduced more metal onto rear as its cross braced ensuring new mounts leverage off old diff centre mounts.
That way it aint going anywhere, however the metal weighed close to nothing, so a small price to pay for strength.
Pretty happy with the upgrades so far.
Butter: (2014-02-19 19:20:07)
When I first saw that you shipped Z31 Stance all the way to AU only to fit it to inferior S14 knuckles, I wanted to kill myself. Then I saw that you came to your senses later on. [archived image: Happy_gif.gif]
Work looks solid.
G-E: (2014-02-19 21:19:35)
… only to fit it to inferior S14 knuckles, I wanted to kill myself …
What makes them inferior exactly?
Pauls: (2014-02-19 21:32:09)
Thanks Butter.
While this whole suspension geometry topic is deep, I needed to understand and see the differences for myself before coming to the party.
Once I realised how the s14-15 knuckles would throw out my front suspension and the battle to then try bring it all back, it was a simple decision to go back to z31 cali knuckles.
However I was amazed that the s14 knuckle adaptors I had purchased for v36 calipers were almost an exact fit onto the late model z31 knuckles. Thanks Nissan :-)
The s14/15 rear end is amazing though. Fully adjustable and beautiful to look at compared to the stock z31 rear suspension that now looks ancient to me AND no rear squat under hard acceleration - for a z31 that's just plain weird…
Butter, is there a noticeable difference in track handling between your z31 with the new setup vs. a slightly lighter and newer s14?
G-E: (2014-02-19 21:50:09)
Oh nvm the fronts :P
Butter: (2014-02-20 20:00:35)
Z31 with an S14 sub is better than an S14 IMO.
Weight is pretty close. The wheelbase is shorter, more responsive. The driving position is more fun, and sitting closer to the rear axle gives you a better sense of feedback.
Also, it's not a generic S-chassis, and people look at you like you're some sort of god because you can drive one of these cars.
G-E: (2015-03-30 08:56:53)
OK so let's clear the air once and for all since I did get a few msgs and questions about the two swap kits…
Unlike Butter asserts, the kit that I offer, either the 2 pin + 2 sleeve or 4 pin varieties, are not 1/3rd of a kit, they are the exact minimum that needs to be machined, ALL the remaining work is cutting, grinding, welding.
Qestion:
- How to align the subframe without that handy sheet bolted to the original bolt holes?
Answer:
- Well there's two frame rails on the car, you can find the exact center with a measuring tape, and find the center on the subframe, that's it.
- You bolt the two rear adapters into the subframe (with bushings) loosely and lift it into place, all you have to do then is move it left or right to line up the center marks.
- If you can't use a measuring tape, you can't do this swap.
Question:
- How do I connect the sleeves to the subframe without those handy cut tubes and bent pieces?
Answer:
- Exactly the way you cut and notch the car to fit the subframe in the first place!
- Cut some scrap 1/8th plate into the correct shapes and weld them.
- I provide templates you can print out 1:1 scale.
- If you can't use a grinder to cut a few pear shapes and rectangles, you can't do this swap.
There's no magic to the swap, Butter drilled through his car and dropped in threaded rod, Andrew welded bolts to flat plates upside down, and I'm sure there's other methods used.
It's a simple but very expensive operation. I've heard everything from $800 to $1600 for a shop to do the swap, and that doesn't include all the arms/bushings. If you check amreboot's thread, he did most of the work himself and it still cost well over $3000 including differential, custom driveshaft, etc.
But that's the price you pay when you have 600hp and don't want to break anything [archived image: smile.png]
zdriver_kado: (2015-03-30 22:13:48)
It's just preference at this point. I'll go with RT if I choose to not fab the rear for myself. Regardless I will want the front sleeves. G-E, if you have an extra sleeve set i'll take 1 or 2.
G-E: (2015-04-02 10:38:13)
These are the templates to cut the front pieces, print them with no scaling, overlay onto some plate, and go nuts cutting [archived image: smile.png]
[archived image: subframe-swap-templates.jpg]
G-E: (2015-04-13 20:40:18)
Yay 2 left… Save $30 over the other kit, and save some another $50+ because you only need half the bushings (ie. you can go splits with someone else)
G-E: (2015-04-19 18:37:51)
These would go great with an R32/S14/S15 subframe: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=600545 (GTR diff and axles, good price)
You'll want this kit If you want to install any of the other subframes outside of the S13 or S14, there's no width or pin placement restrictions [archived image: smile.png]