Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums suspension-chassis-and-brakes/Aftermarket Tie Rods and Adding More Angle
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ShamWow: (2010-05-19 05:37:07)
STOCK
The stock Z31 inner tie rod. It comes in two lovely forms, Kouki and Zenki:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21091
HISTORY
Up until now, there were no performance aftermarket inner or outer tie rods available for the Z31 within the US. Other's looking for more angle and more strength have tried S13/S14 tie rod spacers (direct bolt in), or using a combination of S13/S14 inners and outers. With either combination of S13/S14/Z32 parts, cutting down threads on the inner was required.
Adding Angle: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11140
A slight addition to angle can be achieved by adding 6mm S13/S14 steering spacers and removing the 2mm black plastic ring. Adding more spacers than this will be unsafe thread engagement length within the rack. However, at this point the outer will hit the LCA and also cause a slight bind. As I tested, notching the LCA allows for more angle, but the steering over centers and binds instantly.
SHAMWOW
Here is a look at the worn out stock components. Steering angle is limited when the inner tie rod flat face contacts the steering rack housing:
1012.jpg
I called Kuah at SPL with dimensions. He supplied me with a Tein 350Z inner tie rod, and S13/S14 SPL outer tie rod ends. This kit allows for a healthy adjustment range, for both Kouki and Zenki cars. I would argue that these are the strongest components on the market right now, and SPL parts has amazing service. Note the bumpsteer adjustment spacers provided in the kit:
103
104
The Tein inner rods came with 6mm rack spacers, which I gleefully installed. Angle was increased, but outer tie rod would contact LCA before rack travel stopped. This gives kind of awkward steering feel, and puts an awful lot of stress on the tie rods. Here is the angle achieved: Compare to above stock picture (taken at same camera positions)
1056.jpg
I thought about stopping here, especially since my 275 width tires were mm's from the frame rail of the car. Eventually I just said fuck that and cut off my LCA's more:
1078.jpg
The problem with this setup is the over centering of the outer tie rod end. Basically, when you turn to lock, the outer joint crosses over the axis of the steering rack. Now when you turn back the other direction, the rack tries to push the tie rod harder into the LCA. Essentially the steering locks up.
The solution to this over centering problem is to create/mod a steering knuckle with less Ackerman angle. Here are the stock knuckles:
109x.jpg
I have an extra set of knuckles to mod. Perhaps I will give it a go this summer. Its a simple cut and weld really, but would need a jig to ensure Left and Right come out the same. For now I am running stock steering angle :-(
EDIT UPDATE:
Steering angle seems alright, only a bit more than stock. I have removed the black plastic rings, and notched the LCA's to allow further clearance. However, an LCA bump stop for the rod end is needed to prevent "chatter" at lock. My tires were rubbing the rails:
862sik: (2010-05-19 07:14:59)
Nice effort dude, thanks for sharing.
Benedict: (2010-05-19 13:01:15)
I'm drooling…
DeleriousZ: (2010-05-19 14:51:24)
so when are you going to actually use all of these goodies?
Benedict: (2010-05-19 21:46:57)
are you asking me or mike?
DeleriousZ: (2010-05-19 22:32:30)
haha mike, sorry for confusion.
well, maybe you too :P
adamvann3: (2010-05-20 03:12:10)
Great information mike.
Big help with the pictures as well.
MrKaira: (2010-06-10 02:54:03)
I am really interested in this setup since I am probably going to have to replace my tie rods in order to pass inspection.
I am not really too concerned with adding more angle, instead really tightening up the steering and making it more responsive. On the SPL website they have the Z32 inner tie rods for "grip or street use." If I combined the Z32 inners and SPL outers, would I experience any of the issues with the LCA you are running into, or is that just because of your suspension setup? I am on Illuminas/ST springs.
Thanks for the info and awesome thread!
ShamWow: (2010-06-10 03:23:42)
As the post states, you will need Z33 Tein inner tie rods, and SPL S13/S13 outers. This is the combination which provides the proper lengths and adjustment for the Z31 chassis. If you do not add the steering angle spacers, this is literally a bolt on upgrade. It's also a great way to reduce the added bumpsteer incurred from lowering the car.
FlawleZ: (2010-06-10 03:38:13)
Really good info here Mike. It looks like you cut straight to the chase and spoke with one of the best of the best. Kuah is everything suspension for the Z32 and Z33 and his time attack Z32 is simply awesome. I'm lucky enough to get to see it frequently at events and track days.
MrKaira: (2010-06-10 11:34:04)
Awesome! Thanks for the info, that's exactly what I was looking for.
Butter: (2010-06-14 22:32:18)
Next time we go to the Gambler House, we need to sneak out to the garage and copy the ackerman on Simba's Awesometron 5000 knuckles.
P.1.M.P.: (2010-06-16 23:03:45)
You need this:
[archived image: P4250475.jpg]
To do this:
[archived image: P8170733.jpg]
Talk about steering angle :nanan?re
FlawleZ: (2010-06-17 02:14:41)
Oh geez that just looks like it would break with enough forward momentum.
PurePontiacKid: (2010-06-17 15:31:17)
Are those a different factory style knuckle or are they shortened? I can see a seam, but it's not too clear in that pic…
P.1.M.P.: (2010-06-17 19:17:35)
Well those are stock S12 knuckles, this person shortened and welded them. I wonder is the knuckles from an SE-V6 model would work?
ShamWow: (2010-07-06 04:22:26)
I will not be excessively shortening the knuckle as the example above shows. Shortening the knuckle:
- Makes less turns to lock (increased steering ratio)
- Makes the car twitchy to inputs
- Increases steering input required, straining driver and pump
- Decreases steering feel
I would rather reduce ackerman with only a small amount of shortening. Reducing Ackermam has its disadvantages as well, but it makes sense for my application.
The Powered by Max kit offers more strength than cutting the stock shit, and provides some bump steer correction. It is easy to machine and weld in comparison to hacking the stock knuckles. Obviously its mounting point locations will be incorrect for the Z31 chassis; you can not simply buy the PBM kit for our car and expect it to work well. However re-creating it for our chassis seems plausible…
[archived image: 1231381587_2_FT0_p1040010s.jpg]
[archived image: 1209176010_2_FT2084_p1030224.jpg]
[archived image: 1209176010_2_FT2084_p1030228.jpg]
nismopu: (2010-07-06 13:49:43)
Uh.....WTF is that?? We need something a little more professional looking than that I would think.
Steve88t: (2010-07-06 14:29:37)
Despite the apparently poor design that is extremely popular and appears to work reliably. It defies my simpleton logic for construction but I won't argue it's effectiveness.
ShamWow: (2010-07-06 15:16:29)
Would you care to elaborate? I've researched every other option on the market, and PBM is the best in my opinion in terms of design and strength. I believe it is superior to cutting and welding the shitting cast knuckles, and several have proved its strength in D1 comp. It also allows some adjustment, and corrects bumpsteer.
Also, realize that this component has only a few precision machined features (even those are probably toleranced very loosely). Think about what it does, and the tolerances needed to accomplish that; this makes it even easier to machine.
Your input is appreciated; Copying this kit with revised dimensions for the Z31 seems like an excellent option.
joeyz31na: (2010-07-06 16:12:24)
Whats not professional about it? People love powered by max stuff, including Matt Powers
khyronzx: (2010-07-06 19:39:11)
This makes absolutely no sense at all.
If lock on the z31 rack is controlled by the back of the inner tie rod contacting the rack, shorter arms will not change the turns to lock. The same number of turns of the wheel with an increased steering ratio will result in more steering angle. This will increase the ration and angle, not to say however that other suspension components will bind up before the inners contact the rack.
PurePontiacKid: (2010-07-06 20:56:36)
or what if they're running proper bumpstops on the steering knuckles, and the inner tie-rods don't contact the rack?
ShamWow: (2010-07-06 21:27:32)
You are correct Khyron, on the Z31 chassis the inner tie rod hitting the rack controls the stop, and there will not be less turns to lock. There will be less turns the same steering angle as before modding the knuckles, or as you have correctly stated, increased ratio.
I havn't modelled it, but visually it would seem that without a reduction in Ackerman, there is no way to get more angle without "over-centering" or bind.
DeleriousZ: (2010-07-06 21:32:32)
what about those offsetting steering rack bushings?
khyronzx: (2010-07-06 21:43:03)
The knuckles being shorter would increase steering angle if they don't bind first. Maybe there is a sweet spot to shortening (not as drastic as those s12 ones) them where it won't bind, maybe in conjunction with those offset bushes. Those v2 bump steer spacers with the knuckles built in are looking like a mighty good idea about now, could have made the arms slightly shorter too.
adamvann3: (2010-07-07 04:25:18)
[quote]Mike_GruiZinga wrote:
Uh.....WTF is that?? We need something a little more professional looking than that I would think.
Would you care to elaborate? I've researched every other option on the market, and PBM is the best in my opinion in terms of design and strength. I believe it is superior to cutting and welding the shitting cast knuckles, and several have proved its strength in D1 comp. It also allows some adjustment, and corrects bumpsteer.
Also, realize that this component has only a few precision machined features (even those are probably toleranced very loosely). Think about what it does, and the tolerances needed to accomplish that; this makes it even easier to machine.
Your input is appreciated; Copying this kit with revised dimensions for the Z31 seems like an excellent option.
I think more or less what he is getting at is there is some development of the bumpsteer and steering knuckle as one piece, kind of a catch all that wouldn't involve welding like the PBM kit.
khyronzx: (2010-07-07 13:22:42)
Didn't the v2's get shelved because of ridiculous machining costs or something though?
floridaZ: (2010-07-07 16:18:00)
Yea, well… ridiculous machining costs when catering to Z31 owners at least. :-(
adamvann3: (2010-07-07 21:21:53)
Never shelved, just behind the scenes.
ShamWow: (2010-07-07 21:26:01)
I'm talking about machining the U-shaped piece from the PBM kit, not building the space shuttle.
After the initial 7 hours of my design time, Its $20 worth of steel and 15 minutes of welding.
- -?
Sharpen047: (2010-07-20 19:02:00)
is there a reason to use tein rods rather than stock z33 ones?
ShamWow: (2010-07-20 19:32:30)
I imagine that OEM Z33 inners could be combined with any S13-S14 aftermarket outers providing the threads match. The lengths will be correct.
The Tein inners are considerably thicker and stronger. Ikeya are very nice as well.
Sharpen047: (2010-07-20 21:00:20)
what is the difference going to the thicker ones, is it noticable? i can get stock ones from rock auto for 30$ each instead of 200+ :P i am guessing those ones from rockauto are better than my stock worn out ones. I am looking at this because i will be replacing my steering rack soon.
sbs z31: (2010-07-21 00:53:03)
it'll help prevent bending tie rods for that mad drift angle, nice write up though mike!
ShamWow: (2010-07-21 03:11:19)
Your not getting it. The only reason to perform this "mod" is for more strength, less bumpsteer and more steering angle (drift). Yes it costs more than stock shit.
Buying OEM inners rather than Tein might save a few dimes, but you still need good aftermarket outers ($150+) to reap the benefits.
Sharpen047: (2010-07-22 00:18:00)
[quote]Mike_GruiZinga wrote:
what is the difference going to the thicker ones, is it noticable? i can get stock ones from rock auto for 30$ each instead of 200+ :P i am guessing those ones from rockauto are better than my stock worn out ones. I am looking at this because i will be replacing my steering rack soon.
Your not getting it. The only reason to perform this "mod" is for more strength, less bumpsteer and more steering angle (drift). Yes it costs more than stock shit.
Buying OEM inners rather than Tein might save a few dimes, but you still need good aftermarket outers ($150+) to reap the benefits.
oh i see [archived image: smile.png] i was thinking super turning radius! and as of now i dont have enough power to drift with my sticky tires because im NA and it almost never rains here in cali.
sbs z31: (2010-07-22 04:47:08)
[quote]Sharpen047 wrote: [quote=Mike_GruiZinga]
what is the difference going to the thicker ones, is it noticable? i can get stock ones from rock auto for 30$ each instead of 200+ :P i am guessing those ones from rockauto are better than my stock worn out ones. I am looking at this because i will be replacing my steering rack soon.
Your not getting it. The only reason to perform this "mod" is for more strength, less bumpsteer and more steering angle (drift). Yes it costs more than stock shit.
Buying OEM inners rather than Tein might save a few dimes, but you still need good aftermarket outers ($150+) to reap the benefits.
oh i see [archived image: smile.png] i was thinking super turning radius! and as of now i dont have enough power to drift with my sticky tires because im NA and it almost never rains here in cali.
you just have to go in super fast and initiate early!
Rustspecs13: (2011-10-09 20:56:23)
So I'm trying to start on the angle mods on my 88T, and I'm not getting anything.
I got some MFR s14 inners and moog outer tie rods. The inners have built in rack spacers. I have the passenger side on, and no extra angle. The rack stops on something internal, and it wouldn't even touch the rack housing.
That's full "lock" and neither my stock tie rod of the rack spacer/s14 tie rod bottoms out on the rack housing like my s13's and apparently mikes zenki.
Do I need a zenki or s13 steering rack for full travel?
And I'm going to mod my knuckles and decrease the ackerman a little. Hopefully in the next couple days. But I wanted to get a start on the basics with these. Guess not.
~Alex
Butter: (2011-10-10 12:25:52)
Hmm, that's odd.
P.1.M.P.: (2011-10-10 22:38:15)
I posted a picture of how one S12 owner went about shortening his knuckles. Granted they look really short.
My buddy shortened his Z31 knuckles awhile back. That in addition to some steering rack spacers added up to almost 50° of steering angle. Stock was somewhere like 30 or so.
KevinA: (2011-10-10 23:05:26)
Can i ask a dumb question?
What would the advantage of more angle?
is it just for drifting?
RXGhost: (2011-10-11 00:39:31)
can we get this as a sticky?
Pauls: (2013-06-07 04:01:26)
I've got an 89 z31 turbo and running s14 LCA, hubs, knuckles and stance coilovers.
Yet to put the front together, but am looking for inner & outer tierod ends that will allow my z31 rack to connect with s14 knuckles.
I read that tein 350z inners only connect with tein outers?
If I go 350z inners are they the same thread as z31 rack? i assume I can then go s14 adjustable outers as a direct bolt onto 350z inners?.. and no weakness/safety issues using adjustable ends?
Also I'm not sure what thread the z31 runs m16x1.5 or m16x1mm ?
Should I chose to shorten the s14 LCA's in the future, I assume there's enough adjustment in the tie rod ends to wind them back as well?
references;
http://www.ziptied.com/forums/index.php?topic=39378.0
http://www.zdriver.com.au/index.php/…s15/#entry1986
http://www.zdriver.com.au/index.php/…-gtrz15-build/
Thanks,
Paul
G-E: (2013-06-07 05:34:41)
Inner to rack is M16x1.0
Outer to inner is M14x1.5
Did you even mockup any of this to see if you want to continue exploring this road?
Pauls: (2013-06-07 14:53:25)
Cheers so z31 rack is M16x1.0?
yeah I mocked up l/h side as per here; http://www.zdriver.com.au/index.php/…-gtrz15-build/
only thing I didn't like was needed to tighten tension rod in order to bring wheel forward.
Interested in exploring shortening s14 LCA.
michaelp: (2013-06-07 14:56:08)
So hows your car drive now that the wheels are slammed back about 4" in the wheel arches and your wheelbase is now shorter than a miatas?
Pauls: (2013-06-08 06:55:05)
hmmm not what I was asking or a constructive comment. If you had looked at my build link would have realised the build is still underway :-)
Others have done the same and documented on here and on zdriver.com.au so need to use the adjustable tension rods to pull it forward.
That's not to say that I wont look further into modding to achieve a close to standard look & feel while retaining improved handling.
As expected upgrading a pre 90's car to handle like a newer car comes with its challenges, not to mention as a z31 community we learn from each others wins & losses.
G-E: (2013-06-08 10:11:55)
What you should do instead of twisting your bushing to hell pulling the arm forward: is to either make a forward bend in the control arm (pie cut + weld in new plate), or alternately weld a new balljoint mount to the bottom of the s14 spindle offset toward the rear by approx. 45mm, it should be 10 degree taper
stufferton: (2013-06-08 11:11:38)
Hasn't it been established many many times over that the s13 suspension design is not superior in any way? It is a lot of work for basically no gain. If you want to spend that much time fooling around with the front end, convert everything to heim joints for reduced binding and far more tuning potential than pissing into the wind with s13 parts.
Pauls: (2013-06-08 13:54:34)
Thanks for comments guys.
I foresee a heim joint or custom LCA if need be.
i'm running s14 not s13 gear.
Went s14 as it allowed me to go g37 brakes.
Also have complete s14-15 rear setup and fits like a dream.
So given s14 LCA is slightly longer & balljoint is on a greater incline angle, why can't we run the z31 LCA? Will balljoint run out of travel as suspension retracts?
Might leave this for now and tackle it last when it comes time for alignment.
G-E: (2013-06-08 22:49:56)
The control arm isn't where the problem lies…
michaelp: (2013-06-08 23:14:54)
Z32 brakes work with Z31 spindles....and G brakes work on Z32s…therefor G brakes work on z31s too. hahaha
You have crap for caster when running S chassis stuff. If you actually read stuff on ziptied, you'd have found butter's build thread and realized all of the faults in that idea.
Pauls: (2013-06-08 23:44:45)
G-E, gotcha its in the spindle as sits further back.
Michaelp, you might want to brush up on your manners a little, after all we are meant to all help each other.
I have read butters and others threads. With that said two guys in oz are running the s chassis fronts on road & track with no issues at all.
so while I'm no guru, I'm exploring options in order to get a clearer understanding of what can & can't be done.
Seeing it myself allows me to get a grip and seek out a solution.
As far as I'm concerned there's more focus around here on what can't be done and wise ass remarks rather than focusing on a solution!
I haven't seen anyone run g37 brakes on a z31 so can't exactly follow others lead can I? and it's from no lack of research.
michaelp: (2013-06-09 00:08:09)
Okay. Put the S14 stuff in your car, then take a picture of your wheel pushed back in the wheel arch for me. mmkay? Thanks.
G-E: (2013-06-09 00:28:16)
It's because people often join the community from another (like 240sx or rx7) where the aftermarket is entirely different, and they bring that mindset here thinking it applies, when it doesn't
The other side of it is, a lot of n00bs come here thinking they've discovered some great secret we didn't already know/discuss a billion time already… and if you look around, you see we beat topics to death [archived image: smile.png]
Pauls: (2013-06-09 10:28:59)
Michaelp, if you looked at my build, you would have noticed I've already done a test fit with s14/g37 rotors/brakes.
G-E, I've owned z31's for a while & found out about s13 & s14 fit on this forum & there's a few getting around with that setup.
This is however my first venture into heavy mods.
So will z32 spindles fit? Given mine is the last of z31's I would assume fit is close.
The goal is to use my stance coilovers & g37 rotors & callipers.
NissanEgg: (2013-06-09 14:12:13)
Z32 spindles are totally different than Z31/S13/S14. It uses a funky form of double "wishbone" or link setup, just like the P10/P11 G20s.
Some people may get around with S13/S14 front setup, but is it proper in terms of geometry, hell no. Some of the guys who do it don't know any better and don't know what a proper geometry suspension handles like. Some of them are just blinded by the S-chassis parts bandwagon to see it different.
G-E: (2013-06-10 02:19:21)
To add to what he said, the coilovers mount entirely differently on the z32 as well
michaelp: (2013-06-10 02:24:56)
Picture of Z32 front suspension from my old Z32, since people are still making assumptions and stupid ideas.
G-E: (2013-06-10 03:09:47)
Should have shown him one with the wheel turned out so he can see the way everything attaches
Pauls: (2013-06-10 22:49:26)
Ok. I get it now, it's a decent learning curve, however I don't agree with the negative cant be done attitude.
exploring s14 setup has helped me get my head around this.
Looked into z32 which is freakish setup.
So going back to z31 hubs & knuckles, goal is to test fit my 08 g37s rotors and get caliper adaptor made up for the same aekbono callipers.
Next will be adaptor that slides into cut down z31 tube that has holes to bolt upto s14 coilovers.
i just hope spindles are the same!
jaqattack02: (2013-06-11 02:30:22)
Why don't you make your own thread to talk about it, rather than hijacking this one?
Pauls: (2013-06-11 05:08:31)
Sorry dude, started with tie rods and as usual the problem was deeper ending up at spindle, hubs etc.