Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums engine-mechanical-aa/James Rear Mount Equal Length Tubular Headers - Test fitted to car
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james: (2009-04-16 11:52:49)
This is my Design Proposal
Before i get flamed, I want to prove or dis prove that equal length headers can work with the turbo at the stock location.
The headers are modeled to scale
The rest is a BASIC BASIC BASIC design mock up to give me something to work from and tweak up later.
The point of this topic is not about just using stock manifolds or using a front mount turbo.
I think It can work, if i can get more space for the turbo and turbo feed pipe.
I think Stage 2 will be to take measurement from the car, do a model of a block & gearbox to check clearance.
Any comments welcome.
Mods please move this if its in the incorrect forum.
Steve88t: (2009-04-16 13:33:54)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
That would be a pretty impressive project if you actually built a set. Actually pretty impressive that you created a model.
The first question that needs to be asked is related to length and diameters. How did you determine what those measurements should be?
LuZZifer: (2009-04-16 15:21:12)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Is there room behind the motor and firewall to do that?
Windzer: (2009-04-16 17:52:09)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
As it is drawn it will hit the tranny, going much higher than stock will hit the intake, it could be done, but it will probably not be an optimum configuration for exhaust gas flow
james: (2009-04-16 21:09:57)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I have set the primaries diameter set at 40mm OD just as something to go from, and the secondaries to the Y join at 50mm OD and 60mm OD for the turbo feed pipe.
Primary Length Comes in around about 320 - 350mm range ( yes they need balanced out )
Secondary Length Comes in at 280mm
Steve88t, this is just how it came out
That model Is Rough Rough Rough.
I believe my design would be like placing another crossover pope on top of a normal Z31 crossover as far as height is concerned. I can see it being level with the top of a valve cover.
I'm certain this will require a Sheet metal plenum and some clever heat shields. As Windsor Pointed out it would hit the stock plenum.
I am a reasonable Cad guy, this was a hack job- however as the cad progresses and it looks like things will fit- I may consider building the crossover pipe & turbo feed pipe and go from there if its sucessfull.
Guest: (2009-04-16 21:24:13)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
This would definitely look awesome. how would you go about making them?
james: (2009-04-16 21:51:04)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I have roughly kept my design to only use one radius of bend throughout to keep it reasonable for cutting and welding.
Plan was to use thick wall steel, maybe Satan can recommend a wall thickness?
My plan was to use the engine from my parts car as a massive jig and slowly piece things up so that they stay as compact as possible, and true to the final design that i use.
Basically to build them i would create an individual drawing for each runner ( 1:1 scale ) and work from that to make sure i get my angles cut right.
I would cut and tack weld everything for an engineer to do all the tig welding. I have decent access to a bench grinder, band saw & huge Welder.
I have never built headers before, but to be honest the welding is the hard part, because with a CAD model i already know where stuff goes, and i have the cutting gear already.
Steve88t: (2009-04-16 22:12:48)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
OK so it is more of a "can it be made to fit" concept than anything. I'd think in most engine bays this is not feasible. However, once you strip out unwanted items and relocate some of the others it may be possible. That Y in the middle is your problem. You may consider moving it further to the driver side and extend the driver side common pipe to keep things even. That would reduce the amount of rats nest on the back of the heads.
Windzer: (2009-04-16 22:30:53)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Indeed, main issue is that you are going to run out of space between the transmission and intake very quickly collecting it at that point
bleakdragonmage: (2009-04-16 23:00:39)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
raise the Y pipe a little bit and run a pathfinder intake…you have to raise the hood for the pathy anyways so it will fit probably…
Racinjitter: (2009-04-17 01:40:40)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Cool idea, but where is the wastegate? Pretty much all of the interference issues that I see have been discussed.
Steve88t: (2009-04-17 03:00:37)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Wastegates are for pussies. Besides, there are several ways to control boost other than a wastegate.
SATAN: (2009-04-17 03:11:58)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Actually, there is so much piping there that you aren't going to want to use a thick walled stainless. Yeah if you used a schedule 10 pipe, it would be super strong BUT, think about the weight you are putting on the heads. The cast iron mani's are already heavy but that much stainless is going to be even heavier if it is a thick sched 10 or similar. Then again, if you are bracing it, it wont matter…
One other thing you have to consider is going to be thermal expansion. The longer the individual runners, the more expansion there is going to be. To me it looks like your turbo is going to be moving around quite a bit. That is going to be tricky to make a brace for. The brace would have to hold the weight of the turbo AND allow it to move around while the manifolds are expanding.
When you do your final fitting and tack welding, make sure you keep in mind that the individual welding the pipes is going to have to be able to get his torch in there to weld all the way around the pipes. This can be VERY difficult when pipes get too close together. Even the best welder will sometimes have to make it look like shit just so they are sure it is actually sealed all the way, if they are too tight together.
I like what you got going on there. I personally thing it would be easier to go around the front of the engine. If you are going through the trouble to make these things, chances are good that there is little left in the engine bay that is stock. Going around the front would allow you to run an E-fan and give you tons of room to work with in front of the pulleys. Thats just my opinion though.
SATAN: (2009-04-17 03:12:47)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]Steve88t wrote:
Cool idea, but where is the wastegate? Pretty much all of the interference issues that I see have been discussed.
Wastegates are for pussies. Besides, there are several ways to control boost other than a wastegate.
Yeah, its called "Feather the throttle".
Racinjitter: (2009-04-17 05:51:49)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
But what if you have a digital foot? My foot only goes to WOT and nothing…
james: (2009-04-17 07:20:22)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Great Advice Jon
I am trying to do a super stealthy setup, that looks visually tidy and functions perfectly. It is a lot of extra hassle to keep the turbo where it started and yes it makes things harder, but for me personally I would like to keep it "looking" fairly Normal but with some flash exhaust manifolds.
Lots of Jap cars have flash manifolds but not many of them are setup TOTALLY different to stock.
I mostly want to do it just because nobody has ever done one like this. And its a great excuse to build some super awesome manifolds while the motor is on the engine stand getting built. "typical setup, pistons,rods,cams,springs,porting,nistune & injectors etc.
If the equal length donsn't work out i will still use baisc manifold design for a "Street fighter style front mount" if i have to.
Next installment will be a better cad model complete with dummy engine block & heads to hopefully demonstrate that it will fit.
K_Scheeringa: (2009-04-17 11:05:08)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Does someone have an actual model of the complete engine, with or without intake?
I use SoldWorks all day long an am interested in trying a few hypotheticalâs, it would be easier not starting from scratch..
Then all we need to do is model in the rest of the car.. LOLâ¦
Taris Blue: (2009-04-17 12:02:59)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I don't understand why you would take so much time and effort custom fabricating headers to keep the turbo in the stock location…it makes little to no sense seeing as access to the turbo in the stock location is terrible let alone figuring out a solution to work the intake by the stock motor mount as well as overall turbo size restriction between the block and frame…it seems as though creating a different turbo mounting spot as others have done and creating a new downpipe would make a lot more sense and be much better/easier to work on later.
Maybe I just don't understand your drive to do this…
84_z31: (2009-04-17 13:32:27)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
summer project i'm going to be working on,
i've got SW at home, just waiting to finish up some finals and start crackin at the block which is going to be one of the longest parts of the job.
TurboZkid: (2009-04-18 04:05:12)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
i dont know why you would want it in the stock location to begin with…it limits the size of the turbo, to what a holset? compared to satans location witch has a gt42r....
RobP3ZXT: (2009-04-20 18:42:41)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
you say a holset like those can't be big… lol
welcome to the hx82
HowlerMonkey: (2009-04-21 07:07:42)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
My experience with equal length headers on porsche 935s was that they only helped off boost torque and made the same levels as the seemingly horrible headers the 935s came with.
Back in 1986, we got some headers from Al Holbert's 962 car and decided to duplicate the setup to run on a rear engine car (pictured 935/930s slopenose).
This is a single turbo porsche 935 as mandated by IMSA GTO rules.
That car has 70,000 racing miles on it.
When the engine went up to andial, it actually dyno'd 35hp less but did have some driveability improvements at certain parts of the rpm range.
Our drivers did not like them and the lap times at summit point showed that both drivers were getting slower lap times as they were fully aclimated to the crazy peaky on/off nature of the original setup.
I've noticed that the shorter the distance between the head and the turbo nets the best hp and boost response........if the short trip doesn't include sharp angles.
bemis: (2009-04-21 21:15:50)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
And that cross-over pipe is taking ALOT of potential HP out of VG30E engine.
SATAN: (2009-04-22 05:13:31)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
And this is why it blows my mind that the STS rear mounted turbo's actually do ok and sell so well.
james: (2009-04-22 09:46:10)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Ive got a Fairly Solid and Compact Design for a header pretty well sorted out.I will probably post up some stuff once I've done some math on primary and secondary lengths and diameters.
I will hopefully have some completed drawings up in a couple weeks & then maybe some Fabrication.
I might still go with a similar header but just use the unequal length crossover.
Even if I am forced to go with a front mount setup, the manifold/collector will still be drawn & built.
Cheers guys.
HowlerMonkey: (2009-04-22 14:02:43)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I know a couple of crown victoria guys who rear mounted turbos and both had carpet fires after running it hard and parking it.
I can imagine it's pretty risky to have 10 feet of red hot piping under the car as anything pre-turbo has the potential to get that hot.
NYZDude: (2009-05-04 13:37:12)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
because some people (me included) want to keep their A/C
Shady195: (2009-05-04 15:12:28)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
None the less some people like a more stealthy install..
theres quite a few people that made some serious HP number with the turbo in the stock location on the stock manifold
james: (2009-05-04 22:47:55)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]NYZDude wrote:
I don't understand why you would take so much time and effort custom fabricating headers to keep the turbo in the stock location
because some people (me included) want to keep their A/C
This is a good point, however its not the reason I'm building manifolds.
I would rather not bother with the cast manifolds as i know I can do a better job, this is also a great opportunity to design headers & get my cams done to match.
as it happens i would prefer to keep the turbo in the stock location. While some of you don't agree with it that's fine because its my car and its my choice. I also want to prove it Can be done easily by somebody willing to think about things and put some time into it with a good result.
I like the front mount setups but I just don't think i can get away with that and still pass my inspection.
I also greatly enjoy designing and building with these kind of projects.
on a more positive note
I have ordered Flanges from a local supplier & I have completed the "header" part of my cad model and i will post up some more detailed drawings soon. & maybe in couple weeks have some Fabrication pictures.
james: (2009-05-05 06:20:57)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
My flanges arrived today
Cost was $78 NZD so around $45 USD for both sides .
as it turns out they are drilled for 10mm studs, which wont matter as half of the studs in my heads were broken and sheared off needing drilled out anyways.
also I will need to carefully re align the holes in the flanges so it keeps the step there. to keep things nice and tidy and to help with "reversion"
So Yeah
More to come once some other materials arrive & my heads are Re drilled.
DeleriousZ: (2009-05-05 14:53:08)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
10mm is the way to go. just be aware if you're going to wrap the manifolds to keep it to one wrap otherwise it gets too tight to get the nut on the stud lol. i ran into this with my 8mm studs even.
tmbg: (2009-05-05 16:29:22)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
where'd you get the flanges?
james: (2009-05-05 19:48:44)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I won't wrap the manifolds, but i will be getting them Ceramic Coated.
tmbg, I Live in New Zealand and the flanges come from the main exhaust supplies wholesale outfit called AUTOBEND.
I was going to get some cnc cut but then i realized they were cheap and in stock.
If anybody would like the CAD drawing of the FLange PM me an email address.
DeleriousZ: (2009-05-05 19:54:09)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Maybe if you pm xenonz31 he'll toss the file up on his site? that would be helpful for everyone.
Careless: (2009-05-06 06:46:12)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
linear potentiometer actuation throttle foot, engage!
Careless: (2009-05-06 06:50:50)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I bet this is how similar to how the conversation went when they designed the Z31. Here's my interpretation.
"hey, this engine rocks… shall we put it in a sports car?"
---"uhhh… sure.. lets take out this I6 and put it in this car…"
"hmmm. OK!"
---"now how do we remove stuff if it goes bad?"
"hmmmm…" *sigh"
- pencils in ammendments to FSM: to service turbo or head, remove engine from vehicle***
- nanan?re
james: (2009-05-06 06:53:37)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Well I have done this drawing of how i would like my Manifold to be.
But after a PM and some measurements from SATAN I'm not sure this will fit.
So perhaps back to AutoCAD and come up with something similar but more compact.
Still better to draw it 10 times than to actually build it wrong.
james: (2009-08-05 10:51:41)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
It has been quite some while since i have looked at this. With measurements from heads and block in the car I have come up with this design to fit a lot better and also clear the brake master cylinder.
I am starting to build these in the next few days over my long weekend & i will try and update progress as to how they fit.
Please excuse my terrible render.
james: (2009-08-06 04:10:29)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I got started on the Passenger side today ( RHD passenger side )
this is just mocking up at the moment, the pipes still need to be expanded to create the slip joints where each section joins up, this will give me double the thickness for when its welded.
I will hopefully mock up the driver side tomorrow and see how clearance to the brake master cylinder is.
NissanEgg: (2009-08-06 19:40:25)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Nice progression.
vagabond: (2009-08-06 21:13:41)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Looking progressive. May the Gods be with you!
james: (2009-08-07 01:23:56)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Cheers Guys
I have been to pick up the collectors, & have borrowed a pipe expander tool
Later on I will have some pics up of the driver side going past the brake master cylinder.
vagabond: (2009-08-07 02:02:55)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I would be interested in stock placement tubular turbo manifolds.
I am unreasonably against relocating my turbo for unknown ignorant reasons.
james: (2009-08-07 06:34:57)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Vagabond
these ARE going to be stock placement manifolds.....i still need to buy a T3 Flange & do a design for the piping and bracing ect.
Once i am finished CAD plans will be available to whoever wants to have these built.
Anyway so since yesterday i have Revised every single pipe to make it fit much nicer and done all the tack welding and added the collector.
From here this side is done and can go out for tig welding once I build the other side.
NissanEgg: (2009-08-07 15:32:12)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Is that the right side tubular manifold installed on the left side head? Where is the turbo supposed to go?
vagabond: (2009-08-07 18:12:43)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Its Right hand Drive! Opposite land. Shit swirls backwards. Crazy.
james: (2009-08-07 21:23:31)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
in that picture if you look closely you can see the oil feed pipe and return line for the turbo. That manifold is left side manifold on the left side head> its all meant to be like that
turbo will sit in the same position but under that manifold you guys will see how it all works once i build the crossover pipe and buy some more flanges & pipe
james: (2009-08-08 22:44:41)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Built most of the other side header, had to tweak it around quite a lot to clear the brake master cylinder.
SATAN: (2009-08-08 22:50:48)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I don't want to be the guy with negative things to say, cause I think what you are doing is awesome! HOWEVER, You are going to have to do some massive shielding on that brake line. Even if the headers were coated, I would still be VERY concerned with boiling my brake fluid on only ONE of my front brakes. That could spell disaster. Hit the brakes, car pulls drastically to one side…
You have everything tacked with some massive tack welds. Try to keep your tacks smaller if you can. It makes pulling it apart much easier. And you don't have to hack as much leaving you with a haggard piece to try and weld up again later. Tacks don't have to be very big to be strong enough for what you are doing.
You should also keep in mind everywhere that is going to be a bitch to weld. Pull it apart, weld as much of it as you can separately. Then piece it together and finish welding. Where the three merge together, it looks like you have to weld around one of the tubes. That is going to be a pain/impossible if the whole thing is tacked together before welding.
Also remember to seal the middle of the three merging pipes ( Triangle space between them) while the collector is off if you haven't already. Otherwise that is going to be impossible to weld when the collector is on and all of your exhaust will leak right out of the middle of the three pipes.
Just some constructive criticism. Keep going, looks great!
james: (2009-08-09 00:49:59)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Cheers for the advice Jon that's good feedback & I do appreciate it. My inspiration came mostly from your car & without it I would not have gone balls deep into pretty much the first custom parts I have ever made.
I am not a welder and this is the first thing i have ever built so the tack welds are a bit nasty.
I won't be doing the welding I am going to send these out to get TIG Welded by a Mate who is a certified welder. He has done a lot of work on manifolds etc and told me to get them mocked up & he will take care of the rest.
As for the Brake Master Cylinder I have tried my best to make it closer to the rocker cover than to the MC, I think by the time i have them ceramic coated, maybe heat wrap the collector + a heat shield + re arranging the hard lines to get them out of the way + insulating the hard lines with some type of heat resistant covering should do the job.
But cheers thought, its good to know that you think its "awesome"
Besides somebody had to do it sooner or later.
At this stage I would like to Reuse the OEM Crossover pipe ( sure they wont be equal length anymore ) but i would hazard a guess that they will still perform bloody well and it will still be the first tubular setup to keep the turbo in a stock location with the added bonus of keeping some of the overall pipe length down.
BenRR: (2009-10-08 05:29:07)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
You could always go with an aftermarket booster located in the car that is a bit more expensive but will give you much more space. I plan on using Tilton units like my previous car only thing is I do not plan to have a complete interior and stock dash so I can run the reservoirs under the dash remote reservoir might do the trick for you.
Shady195: (2009-10-08 15:36:44)
so from what I gather..
These manifold will assembble pretty much like stock in the back location crossover and trhen the turbo will still sit in stock location?
Sounds good!
Careless: (2009-10-09 02:20:33)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
suggestion based on SATAN's comments.
can you take the brake booster, rotate the entire unit, counter clockwise, and drill new holes to mount the entire thing, and then run new break lines that curve up and out of the way and around the master and down?
or better yet…
get a USDM brake master, i think the brake lines are already on the other side?
so if you shield the master on that side and put some of that steel-lined asbestos-cloth (or the asbestos free version) and use some fastening rivets, you could keep the heat down even more than factory shields…
firefox: (2009-10-09 03:26:09)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
love the look and dedication
but why do it in the stock location? who's going to know besides a z31 enthusiast if the turbo is somwhere else?
those are going to be worse off for performance then a stock manifold.
i HIGHLY recommend ceramic coating those things so your spool isn't too much worse
all that extra surface area and thin wall is going to lower your heat expansion significantly which is what makes the turbo work
james: (2009-10-09 09:01:26)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Stock Location, honestly because I want to show people that you can have bad ass manifolds in the stock location
and comments of it wont work motivate me somewhat
Ceramic Coating was always the plan I do agree that they need the coating to be effective.
They may well be worse off for performance but I got off my ass and built something for myself and had fun building them If they don't work I will try something else untill i come up with something better that gets the gains that I'm looking for.
I have tried to keep things as compact as possible
The reasonable length primary and secondary's should promote a bit of low end torque to get the turbo spooling and offer low restriction and smooth response over the factory manifolds.
turbo's may work on heat expansion but they also work on Exhaust Flow which is what these manifolds are designed to take advantage of, they may be slower spooling but with a smooth responsive and low back pressure they will have their merits.
whatever happens they will look awesome when coated.
Fuzzcheek1: (2009-10-09 12:06:59)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
It will never work.
Update me with the progress you make over the weekend.
SATAN: (2009-10-09 14:06:44)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
You'll get them done, they will work great, and you will be like, "Hey, this is awesome! It's such a good feeling that I made something on my own and it works well!"
firefox: (2009-10-09 22:22:05)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]james wrote:
love the look and dedication
but why do it in the stock location? who's going to know besides a z31 enthusiast if the turbo is somwhere else?
those are going to be worse off for performance then a stock manifold.
i HIGHLY recommend ceramic coating those things so your spool isn't too much worse
all that extra surface area and thin wall is going to lower your heat expansion significantly which is what makes the turbo work
Stock Location, honestly because I want to show people that you can have bad ass manifolds in the stock location
and comments of it wont work motivate me somewhat
Ceramic Coating was always the plan I do agree that they need the coating to be effective.
They may well be worse off for performance but I got off my ass and built something for myself and had fun building them If they don't work I will try something else untill i come up with something better that gets the gains that I'm looking for.
I have tried to keep things as compact as possible
The reasonable length primary and secondary's should promote a bit of low end torque to get the turbo spooling and offer low restriction and smooth response over the factory manifolds.
turbo's may work on heat expansion but they also work on Exhaust Flow which is what these manifolds are designed to take advantage of, they may be slower spooling but with a smooth responsive and low back pressure they will have their merits.
whatever happens they will look awesome when coated.
i dont mean to knock on it cuz damn that shit is awesome. you could make a profit selling them if you can fit a bigger turbo in the stock location then what the stock manifolds offer.
what sized turbo you using?
WWR racing made 780hp with ported stock manifolds.
james: (2009-10-09 23:16:51)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Hey Yeah its all good,
I swear every single person has always asks me why the stock location so it gets tiring explaining so often.
I am using a Garrett/Air Research T3/T4 ( uh yeah pretty small i know ) I'm not sure what the biggest size could be fitted as i don't have anything to mock up with apart from the turbo I already have.
Smn2k7: (2009-10-10 05:13:01)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Those look really good…now you have me wanting to give something like that a try… Actually, looks better than really good… I'm a big fan of a stock mounted turbo…and it's really nice to see a set of headers that keep that location, or at least very close to stock. Not to mention, if you pick up any low end at all from these, who cares? More low end on these cars can't do anything but help.
Can't wait to see the completely finished product.
NIVO: (2009-12-20 06:49:52)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
updates mate!
james: (2009-12-21 00:02:05)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Hey Nivo
Sorry about the lack of progress
I have been having issues getting my car running properly to get it on the dyno.
Old manifolds on Dyno need to happen before new manifolds get fitted so that I can have a decent comparison to the old vs new setup.
It could be a little while before these are on the car, but good things take time…keep on waiting mate the good will arrive eventually
Careless: (2009-12-21 00:12:29)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
still not quite invisioning how the turbo gets mounted. I see someone said the turbo is on the other side over there, but then I look at the manifold you used a comparison and it looks like my stock manifold… soooo where is the turbo going?
also. if my eyes are deceiving me, and you guys do have the turbos on the other side, wouldn't that make a twin turbo kit pretty easy if we just got manifolds from your side of the planet and bolted them on? LOL.
just wondering.
Rat1314: (2009-12-21 03:36:22)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
The turbo is on the same side, our passenger side, your drivers side. If it was on the other side then a lot of stuff would have to be moved
james: (2009-12-21 04:35:13)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Its just a confusing looking picture,
turbo is mounted on the same side, what it will do is ON A RHD CAR the driver side manifold will cross over much the same way as OEM does and follow along on to a turbo flange.
then the other manifold will merge into it using a Y merge collector of some sort, it will merge in to be in the approximate place to attempt to keep lengths equal.
don't make me bust out a CAD Model :-D
Careless: (2009-12-21 06:08:10)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
please do.
StreetFighter: (2009-12-21 21:54:02)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
All of this information is incorrect. Firefox is talking out of his ass.
You will see a huge gain in upper RPM power (if you have the heads/intake manifold to support it) as well as a completely different sound from the car. Stock manifolds suck ass, and sound like ass. Take Milo's car as proof.
ShamWow: (2009-12-22 02:00:54)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I agree.
These manifolds should flow much better than stock. I am a bit sad to see you didn't chose an externally gated and divided turbine, but perhaps on your next upgrade.
James, I know your a CAD guy. Why not do some flow testing in Cosmos or similar?
firefox: (2009-12-22 03:48:18)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]StreetFighter wrote:
those are going to be worse off for performance then a stock manifold.
i HIGHLY recommend ceramic coating those things so your spool isn't too much worse
all that extra surface area and thin wall is going to lower your heat expansion significantly which is what makes the turbo work
All of this information is incorrect. Firefox is talking out of his ass.
You will see a huge gain in upper RPM power (if you have the heads/intake manifold to support it) as well as a completely different sound from the car. Stock manifolds suck ass, and sound like ass. Take Milo's car as proof.
i think he stated he only wanted like 10 psi or something
i was saying you would be better off having the stock manifold at that power level for spool time.
the stock shit would not be restrictive at 10psi. the thick cast low internal volume stock manifolds would help lower the boost threshold because more heat is retained (more cfm for the same mass of air helping to boost sooner.)
i could see making custom manifolds like that if he wanted 15+ psi on a larger turbo.
ZFast88Z: (2009-12-22 04:21:41)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Aren't you the one trying to use VQ40 manifolds for a twin turbo setup? And planning to break 1000 horsepower? LOL
James, listen to streetfighter. He knows his stuff :-D
james: (2009-12-22 04:55:47)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Umm yeah, where to begin.............
Firefox > whatever soon enough I will have some numbers to prove people right or wrong so leave it at that.
Mike > Thanks for some good info over the past while in a few different topics and your right my next upgrade will be an external and a new exhaust housing for that turbo
( broke broke broke right now and I can't even get it to run on all 6 cylinders properly )
That RX7 hot side is a twin scroll with twin internal gates so it should control boost much better than your average internal gate setup
Street fighter > thanks buddy, I'm running the schneider cam grind everybody goes for and my heads are ported with 3 angle valve job back cut & swirl polished with the lower intake manifold all hand finished like the cylinder heads.
rebuilt stock bottom end to get things setup and going good before i move to a fully forged vg33.( long term )
I promised myself not to cut up and build an intake plenum Until I have finished the exhaust manifolds
Careless: (2009-12-22 08:46:32)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
less YAP, more CAD. :nanan?re
NIVO: (2009-12-22 13:04:29)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]StreetFighter wrote:
those are going to be worse off for performance then a stock manifold.
i HIGHLY recommend ceramic coating those things so your spool isn't too much worse
all that extra surface area and thin wall is going to lower your heat expansion significantly which is what makes the turbo work
All of this information is incorrect. Firefox is talking out of his ass.
You will see a huge gain in upper RPM power (if you have the heads/intake manifold to support it) as well as a completely different sound from the car. Stock manifolds suck ass, and sound like ass. Take Milo's car as proof.
and that is what the VG30 should sound like… the log manifolds with the crossover pipe going into the drivers side manifold just don't sound so good.
Careless: (2009-12-22 19:20:41)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
yeah, the VG-E sounds awesome with tubular manifolds.
most only know the VG-E by its signature "dying moose" sound with the log mani's.
james, i'd consider purchasing a set from you.
ZFast88Z: (2009-12-22 22:06:20)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]firefox wrote:
Aren't you the one trying to use VQ40 manifolds for a twin turbo setup? And planning to break 1000 horsepower? LOL
James, listen to streetfighter. He knows his stuff :-D
how big are the stock ports? 38mm
how big is the stock manifolds port size… 40 mm
you dont want to make the manifolds to much bigger then the stock port size all the way thru to the collector. you want to make it 2-4mm bigger then the stock port size and as short and as few bends as possible otherwise it just makes your shit raise the boost threshold and lowers gas velocity and heat expansion.
its like a river, the bigger you go the slower the water moves. and when you factor in the heat loss, bigger is not better.
Lets see, listen to the guy using VQ40 manifolds and wanting to make 1000 horspower or a guy that works for Boost Logic making 700 horsepower out of a compound system, or the guy making 700 horsepower out of a parallel twin VG and soon to be a 1000....Hmm I wonder. And to top it all off you referenced it to the amount of boost he is going to run. LOL
Bigger is not always better, but he will be just fine. Hes not hurting spool any. However, the manifold should be coated.
james: (2009-12-22 22:11:41)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Firefox
Primary inside diameter is actually 38.5mm and the port size on my flanges are exactly 39mm > this even falls within what you just said = no problems…
don't get fooled by how the photo looks the primary are actually quite small to help keep the gas velocity up.
as far as few bends as possible, there is maybe like 2-3 bends in each primary, and to keep the lengths short the bends have to be a tight radius. so that rules out large radius bends as it would cause primary length to be excessive and there would be no room to fit them in the engine bay.
it is all a compromise. I am actually running a big turbo now planning on 18psi
Careless > i will happily supply you a set of plans once these are Dyno tested with results. I will need some info from you so we can adapt these to LHD
i would not actually build them for you > my work i far to sloppy but Satan would be the best guy to build them from my set of plans.
I am working on a CAD model for the rest of system at the moment in 2 or 3 days it will be ready as i need to spend time with family over Xmas family matters more than Z31P
also ....THESE MANIFOLDS WILL BE COATED this is 100% necessary in my mind for a number of reasons
NIVO: (2009-12-22 23:29:58)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
James, I like this. keep up with it and make it a reality! :-)
Once it is all set and done will it be 16 gauge stainless tube or Schedule 10 304 pipe?
are these materials easily accessible to you there?
Also if the flange to the head is going to be stainless you are making it .500"?
NIVO: (2009-12-22 23:48:42)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Firefox, I understand what you are doing. and I have read your build thread.
But you have to understand, Some guys here have been around the VG30 for years and many have done 400+whp. Streetfighter has, 1sickZ in Florida has, Jason has and many more, Zfast88Z is currently building a twin turbo VG capable of 1000hp… He can tell you it costs a whole lot more then $6k.
One thing you will notice with the high whp VG cars here is that either the guys making the power own the shop or they work or have connections with a shop.
1sickZ ran a 9.32 run at 143mph and he had roughly mid 600whp figure.
Power can be had on the stock manifolds but James wants something different and he will gain top end power going with the tubular set up something the Z31 lacks if stock manifolds are kept.
ZFast88Z: (2009-12-23 00:01:34)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
With zero markup on parts, and a decent discount on labor due to the amount of work performed, for a comparable Z to what we have built, I would quote a customer in the area of $60,000.
Fast, Cheap and Reliable. You get to pick two out of the three. Which do you prefer?
NIVO: (2009-12-23 01:23:44)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Pretty much an "S" compressor cover (.70 A/R)
So small? hehe… stock manifold can hold turbos that do 750hp… with this manifold set up there would be added top end..
Rat1314: (2009-12-23 09:40:24)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
BTW Manifolds look awesome, can't wait to see how they go on the car
Mitchd03: (2009-12-23 12:32:24)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Log mani's as in what Satan makes? How do they sound?
Or do you mean the stock N/A manifolds?
K_Scheeringa: (2009-12-23 14:28:19)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I would also be interested in getting the cad file for this..
What software are you using???
I am quite familiar with SoildWorks.
I'm sure between some of us LHD guys we can get this to work over here..
The nice thing with CAD is it should be easy to mirror it to get it to flip over to our side…
SATAN: (2009-12-24 00:49:50)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Any drag racing talk that was in this thread has been moved to the racing section.
NIVO: (2009-12-24 02:13:24)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Yeah coating the manifold does wonders…
so by weeks end you should have something done for a complete system?
Careless: (2009-12-25 09:39:44)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]Mitchd03 wrote:
yeah, the VG-E sounds awesome with tubular manifolds.
most only know the VG-E by its signature "dying moose" sound with the log mani's.
Log mani's as in what Satan makes? How do they sound?
Or do you mean the stock N/A manifolds?
I would imagine the only sound changing that SATAN's log-style hybrid manifolds provide are that from the different turbo and the extended cross-over pipe, as well as the primary diameter. It should vary the sound quite a bit compared to stock, as any exhaust does. And then the downpipe would add to that characteristic spool that turbos are known for.
The stock downpipe and manifold sounds mundane.
Rat1314: (2009-12-25 11:58:39)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Why would you want to mirror it? The turbo is on the same side, the problem would be the steering shaft and possibly brake MC and lines
Careless: (2009-12-25 18:36:46)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]Rat1314 wrote:
I would also be interested in getting the cad file for this..
What software are you using???
I am quite familiar with SoildWorks.
I'm sure between some of us LHD guys we can get this to work over here..
The nice thing with CAD is it should be easy to mirror it to get it to flip over to our side…
Why would you want to mirror it? The turbo is on the same side, the problem would be the steering shaft and possibly brake MC and lines
because pictures like this:
are having me confused to. not only do both manifolds have the same shape, just inverted… they show no flange for a turbo to be mounted anywhere, unless it's a rear mounted turbo setup.
If the turbo is going to be mounted at the end of that, well… I have no interest in cutting my firewall to fit a downpipe :-/
domingo: (2009-12-25 20:45:24)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I have these photos of the leaks, which sold one day for Internet, if it can be of help in the design
StreetFighter: (2009-12-26 00:22:31)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I would not set a boost limit before the project is done. The decreased back pressure and scavenging effect from the manifolds will let you run either more boost or more timing. It may be happy at as much as 22-23psi on 93 octane, depending on your CR.
james: (2009-12-26 00:33:59)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Holey shit guys
Give me a chance to design the crossover pipe
Honestly the turbo mounts as OEM no tricks here.
the secret is all my crossover pipe which is in my head and not on a CAD drawing yet
I will say again, the crossover pipe will merge both banks somewhere (yet to be drawn up)around the back of the motor and then bring it over to the turbo flange somewhere round about where the OEM turbo flange mounts up.
My intention is that the stock intake plenum will still fit
Its not that amazing or difficult its just some pipes welded together
Gah cut me some slack here good things will happen soon
Grr: (2009-12-26 06:02:07)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
very good work sir, you are making a very good addition to your combo with this setup. I wouldnt be suprised to see almost 50hp over a set of stock manifolds at full tilt with this. yeah yeah "they made 700whp with stock manifolds" ive heard it too, but they could have made 800whp with just the addition of a proper set of hotside parts. Some of the comments in this thread make me wonder if this is honda-tech, the stupid is strong in here
Careless: (2009-12-26 06:33:37)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
gotcha, now it makes sense [archived image: smile.png]
michaelp: (2009-12-26 07:14:41)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]firefox wrote:
very good work sir, you are making a very good addition to your combo with this setup. I wouldnt be suprised to see almost 50hp over a set of stock manifolds at full tilt with this. yeah yeah "they made 700whp with stock manifolds" ive heard it too, but they could have made 800whp with just the addition of a proper set of hotside parts. Some of the comments in this thread make me wonder if this is honda-tech, the stupid is strong in here
i say tubular manifolds are great if made right, but wtf is the point of custom manifolds to put the turbo back into the stock location in the way hes doing it.
it might make more top end power… but the low end and boost lag will suffer significantly
the manifolds are not as restrictive as our heads are. so the top end gains are mild at best.
i admire james's perseverance and im not discouraging him. just take into account that this is constitutive criticism.
im just going to keep quiet until its done. just like i mostly have with my build on this forum.
Seems to me that its a scheme to build equal length tubular manifolds for a single turbo setup without running a front-mounted turbo-charger…while the front-mounted may flow better, this will still flow better than stock for sure…while also supplying the badass sounds of a V6 with equal length headers [archived image: smile.png]
NIVO: (2009-12-26 17:24:29)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]firefox wrote:
very good work sir, you are making a very good addition to your combo with this setup. I wouldnt be suprised to see almost 50hp over a set of stock manifolds at full tilt with this. yeah yeah "they made 700whp with stock manifolds" ive heard it too, but they could have made 800whp with just the addition of a proper set of hotside parts. Some of the comments in this thread make me wonder if this is honda-tech, the stupid is strong in here
i say tubular manifolds are great if made right, but wtf is the point of custom manifolds to put the turbo back into the stock location in the way hes doing it.
it might make more top end power… but the low end and boost lag will suffer significantly
the manifolds are not as restrictive as our heads are. so the top end gains are mild at best.
i admire james's perseverance and im not discouraging him. just take into account that this is constitutive criticism.
im just going to keep quiet until its done. just like i mostly have with my build on this forum.
I think he is trying to keep the A/C, power steering components unlike the current manifolds in which you have to delete all of it or at least most.
SATAN: (2009-12-26 20:28:37)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Probably the best idea you have had yet.
Careless: (2009-12-27 01:57:12)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
- humhihi
SATAN: (2009-12-27 02:06:50)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]Careless wrote:
Probably the best idea you have had yet.:humhihi
Well, I wouldn't have said that if he had been a little more respectful toward the guy. Coming in saying that something isn't going to work, prove me wrong offers no kind of constructive criticism. It really just makes one look like an ass.
Careless: (2009-12-27 02:48:15)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
only LOL'ing cause I agree. nothing more, nothing less.
260DET: (2010-01-07 03:07:54)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Nice work James, good on you. I'd ignore the impatient ones and just cruise at your own pace.
StreetFighter: (2010-01-10 17:56:42)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
we want moar pics!!1!!
New 2 Z: (2010-01-10 18:28:10)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
i'd be willing to buy a set. better then the stock shitty manifolds.
also keep up the good work they look sweet. if what you say is true and they actually are bigger in the picture then in real life i would think spool up would be bettered.
tlmaniac: (2010-01-13 02:01:36)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I dont see why alot of people are saying it wont boost worth shit or have massive lag because of heat loss. STS remote turbos spool decently and make good power and deffinately have way way more heat loss than these manifolds could ever have. the reason they work so well is because what they loose in thermal expansion they make up for in density. the principal is simple its like hitting a wall really fast and alot of times with a little hammer or hitting it slowly fewer times with a big hammer you get teh same effect. the cooler exhaust charge the remote turbo sees is also denser so it can exert more force on the turbine wheel. there are good and bad arguements for both a short run to the turbo to get the most effect of the thermal expansion of the exhaust gasses and the long run to the turbo with cooler denser gasses being able to exert more force on the turbine. I say great work man owning the redheaded stepchild of the sports car world this is the only way advancement is made someone being brave/creative enough to try something different if it works fantastic if it dosent then lesson learned and someone has developed some fab skills to try something different again that may work. If everyone thought the way some people arround here do we would all still be driving model a fords with 12hp thinking outside a pre determined box is how new things that work are found. hell how do you think the tried and true methods everyone here is stuck on became that way? someone had to try it now didnt they? heck if my work would ever pick back up and i get out of this hole im in i may get to actually finish my car and i will be building a set of manifolds for the det since the extra width of the 4cam heads wouldnt allow a verry big turbo to be put in the stock location.
NissanXRMA: (2010-01-13 02:20:48)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Wow there is so much wrong with this post.
They will have massive lag because of heatloss and because of the other longer pipes. The rear mount turbo like sts will lag a lot. This is because long pipe from the engine to the turbo, the long intercooler pipe, and the longass pipe all the way to the intake/TB. If you put a Stock T3 way back by the tailpipe with IC pipes to the front with all thelong intake pipes, or put it in the stock location, what will spool faster. The STS will take way longer.
Hitting a wall with a little hammer really fast resembles a little turbo spooling very fast with no lag
Hitting a wall with a large hammer very hard but slow resembles a large turbo that spools much later and slower.
The exhaust gases will not flow faster once there cool down. When there is an increase in heat, there is an increase in pressure. When the exhaust gases cool down, they will not exert more force on the turbine.
Why do you think they heat wrap turbo pipes and turbos? To keep in the heat to decrease spool time.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure where wouldn't be driving little box 12hp ford if it weren't for godsend people like you.
CAG8OR: (2010-01-13 04:09:41)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I bought those headers! I still have them. They are in a box somewhere in my attic along with 40 other boxes of unused parts. They are Inconel alloy and are a Greddy/Trust JDM design. Incredibly well made expensive design. Originally designed for the GTP cars. They will not fit our cars, they are designed for a right hand drive car. I wasted nearly $2K on them. What a shame as they are a nice design. I just now read the entire thread and see that James might have a right hand drive car. I know you wanted to create your own, but mine would have bolted right onto your car without a hitch! At least you could have mimic the design. A guy down in Puerto Rico laid down 400 WHP (claimed) with these with minor mods. and an old Wolf tune. The damn steering linkage is in the way on left hand drive cars. Let me know if you need any information from them, I will dig them out and take some better pics.
Grr: (2010-01-13 17:59:58)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
WOW, there is so much wrong with this post. It is obvious that you arent very experienced in testing and designing turbo systems. I have helped design and build quite a few, and ill give you a bit of advice and info from what i have found over the years.
A good book to find and read is Watson and Janota's "Turbocharging the Internal Combustion Engine". It is a foundational volume. I'm sure that there are others.
There are two Basic Approaches to Turbocharging
What you describe with log manifolds or manifolds with short, stubby runners are prime examples of the traditional Approach to boosting: Brute Force Turbocharging.
With Brute Force, the exhaust gases are forced into restrictive and constrictive exhaust manifolds. And from there, those compressed gases are forced to pass through small turbine housings.
The rationale behind Brute Force is: in order the make the turbine spin, the exhaust gases HAVE to be compressed and forced through. Those exhaust gases need to be as hot as possible also. And the turbocharger turbine housing needs to be small enough so as to force the turbine wheel to spin up faster. [that's the only way to reduce lag, don't cha know!]
Well, that Approach does work. It has been working for years. It is the Approach used on nearly all OEM boosted motor cars for decades.
Brute Force has its drawbacks: greatly elevated operating temps for things like exhaust valves; tremendously increased exhaust reversion back up past the intake valve during overlap; and substantially increased levels of negative work that the pistons have to deal with.
To address those drawbacks, a 'new' Approach to Turbocharging has been showing up. First, in competition motors. Now, a lot more on the street.
Low EBR Turbocharging
With Low EBR Boosting, the exhaust gases are NOT constrained and constricted in tiny little manifolds. Headers are used to let the gases FLOW. Turbine housings are not tiny little snail shells either.
With Brute Force boosting, the EBR....Exhaust Backpressure Ratio…the ratio of exhaust pressure to the intake boost pressure....can exceed 3:1.
[i.e., for 10 lbs of boost on the boost gauge, there is possibly 30 PSI (or more) of exhaust pressure resisting that boost pressure.]
With Low EBR Boosting, the exhaust backpressure may remain less than the boost pressure reading.
[there are some guys in Sweden (the savarturbo boys) running EBRs less than 1:1 on motors that are running over 30 PSI of boost, ON THE STREET. And the output is in the neighborhood of 6 hp per cubic inch of displacement.]
The rationale of Low EBR Boosting is: the energy to drive the turbine comes from the velocity of the exhaust gases. Let the exhaust flow its best. Gather and direct those gases into a turbo that can take the velocity and use it to spin the turbine wheel. Keep the exhaust flow flowing well, so that the motor itself does not have to fight the exhaust gases during the exhaust stroke, or during overlap.
Or, to put it another way: Low EBR Turbocharging is an Approach that uses free exhaust gases to achieve, or exceed, the power output levels of motors with mechanically driven superchargers, but without the parasitic drag of the mechanically driven huffer.
In my own experience, every time I have done something that lowers the EBR, the power output has gone up without raising the boost level.
Heat loss is not the problem often suggested. Watson and Janota cited studies of marine applications trying to determine how much energy was being lost due to the use of watercooled manifolding and watercooled turbine housings. The results showed a less than 5% loss of energy to drive the turbine. An amount of energy that could more than be made up for by better flowing manifold designs.
The other thing, is that the flow in the exhaust manifold is highly unsteady. When the exhaust valve opens, it sends a spike of pressure into the manifold and the turbine bleeds it off. From the engine's point of view, the only thing it cares about is the pressure downstream of that particular exhaust valve at the moment of valve overlap, and at that instant in time, it could either be less than the "average" exhaust manifold pressure (because of constant bleed-down through the turbine) or more (because an adjacent cylinder just opened ITS exhaust valve).
And that brings another point … Picture a 4-banger engine with the usual log exhaust manifold before the turbo. During the moment of valve overlap … the exhaust valve on the next cylinder has already opened (before "that" cylinder's bottom-dead-centre and "this" cylinder's top-dead-centre) and it's in the process of blowing-down, sending exhaust manifold pressure skyward at the worst possible time.
The benefit of a tubular exhaust manifold might not be so much for resonance tuning, but rather to delay the effects of that pulse just long enough so that the cylinder which is just finishing its exhaust stroke, doesn't see it.
SO, if you feel you can defend your comments with proof and experience, go ahead. I'm pretty sure more z31's would make over 300whp if it weren't for godsend people like you giving out innacurate and unfounded information
260DET: (2010-01-13 22:55:51)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Great and educational comment Grr, thankyou. I was hoping someone who actually knew what they were talking about would come along and set the record straight, illinformed negative comment on stuff people are building and taking the time to post up pisses me right off.
260DET: (2010-01-13 23:02:27)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]CAG8OR wrote:
I have these photos of the leaks, which sold one day for Internet, if it can be of help in the design............................................ ...............
......................
I bought those headers! I still have them. They are in a box somewhere in my attic along with 40 other boxes of unused parts. They are Inconel alloy and are a Greddy/Trust JDM design. Incredibly well made expensive design. Originally designed for the GTP cars. They will not fit our cars, they are designed for a right hand drive car. I wasted nearly $2K on them. What a shame as they are a nice design. I just now read the entire thread and see that James might have a right hand drive car. I know you wanted to create your own, but mine would have bolted right onto your car without a hitch! At least you could have mimic the design. A guy down in Puerto Rico laid down 400 WHP (claimed) with these with minor mods. and an old Wolf tune. The damn steering linkage is in the way on left hand drive cars. Let me know if you need any information from them, I will dig them out and take some better pics.
I'm in right hand drive territory, PM me if you want to sell and ship that setup without the turbo, although going by the pics that turbo flange is skewed so it may not take a GT35. Which I think has a T3 flange.
Grr: (2010-01-13 23:10:19)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
looks like that setup uses a buick style housing, you can get one of those new or a used one machined for your gt35 for very cheap, or just have a t3 flange welded on it for $30 or so
james: (2010-01-13 23:52:07)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Yes I am RHD
I would have loved to purchase the Greddy Det Manifolds if i knew they existed in a box somewhere.
CAGOR thanks for your offer > this is the kind of attitude Z31P should be known for
Certainly my half finished example will be finished one day amongst the many things I am trying to do all at once
CAG8OR: (2010-01-14 01:52:57)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I am going to go up in the attic tomorrow and find the headers. I will take some new and improved pictures and post them here.
Timbo_021: (2010-01-14 08:55:46)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Get an exhaust place to copy, ill buy a set [archived image: tongue.png]…
tlmaniac: (2010-01-16 20:48:08)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
[quote]Grr wrote:
Wow there is so much wrong with this post.
They will have massive lag because of heatloss and because of the other longer pipes. The rear mount turbo like sts will lag a lot. This is because long pipe from the engine to the turbo, the long intercooler pipe, and the longass pipe all the way to the intake/TB. If you put a Stock T3 way back by the tailpipe with IC pipes to the front with all thelong intake pipes, or put it in the stock location, what will spool faster. The STS will take way longer.
Hitting a wall with a little hammer really fast resembles a little turbo spooling very fast with no lag
Hitting a wall with a large hammer very hard but slow resembles a large turbo that spools much later and slower.
The exhaust gases will not flow faster once there cool down. When there is an increase in heat, there is an increase in pressure. When the exhaust gases cool down, they will not exert more force on the turbine.
Why do you think they heat wrap turbo pipes and turbos? To keep in the heat to decrease spool time.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure where wouldn't be driving little box 12hp ford if it weren't for godsend people like you.
WOW, there is so much wrong with this post. It is obvious that you arent very experienced in testing and designing turbo systems. I have helped design and build quite a few, and ill give you a bit of advice and info from what i have found over the years.
A good book to find and read is Watson and Janota's "Turbocharging the Internal Combustion Engine". It is a foundational volume. I'm sure that there are others.
There are two Basic Approaches to Turbocharging
What you describe with log manifolds or manifolds with short, stubby runners are prime examples of the traditional Approach to boosting: Brute Force Turbocharging.
With Brute Force, the exhaust gases are forced into restrictive and constrictive exhaust manifolds. And from there, those compressed gases are forced to pass through small turbine housings.
The rationale behind Brute Force is: in order the make the turbine spin, the exhaust gases HAVE to be compressed and forced through. Those exhaust gases need to be as hot as possible also. And the turbocharger turbine housing needs to be small enough so as to force the turbine wheel to spin up faster. [that's the only way to reduce lag, don't cha know!]
Well, that Approach does work. It has been working for years. It is the Approach used on nearly all OEM boosted motor cars for decades.
Brute Force has its drawbacks: greatly elevated operating temps for things like exhaust valves; tremendously increased exhaust reversion back up past the intake valve during overlap; and substantially increased levels of negative work that the pistons have to deal with.
To address those drawbacks, a 'new' Approach to Turbocharging has been showing up. First, in competition motors. Now, a lot more on the street.
Low EBR Turbocharging
With Low EBR Boosting, the exhaust gases are NOT constrained and constricted in tiny little manifolds. Headers are used to let the gases FLOW. Turbine housings are not tiny little snail shells either.
With Brute Force boosting, the EBR....Exhaust Backpressure Ratio…the ratio of exhaust pressure to the intake boost pressure....can exceed 3:1.
[i.e., for 10 lbs of boost on the boost gauge, there is possibly 30 PSI (or more) of exhaust pressure resisting that boost pressure.]
With Low EBR Boosting, the exhaust backpressure may remain less than the boost pressure reading.
[there are some guys in Sweden (the savarturbo boys) running EBRs less than 1:1 on motors that are running over 30 PSI of boost, ON THE STREET. And the output is in the neighborhood of 6 hp per cubic inch of displacement.]
The rationale of Low EBR Boosting is: the energy to drive the turbine comes from the velocity of the exhaust gases. Let the exhaust flow its best. Gather and direct those gases into a turbo that can take the velocity and use it to spin the turbine wheel. Keep the exhaust flow flowing well, so that the motor itself does not have to fight the exhaust gases during the exhaust stroke, or during overlap.
Or, to put it another way: Low EBR Turbocharging is an Approach that uses free exhaust gases to achieve, or exceed, the power output levels of motors with mechanically driven superchargers, but without the parasitic drag of the mechanically driven huffer.
In my own experience, every time I have done something that lowers the EBR, the power output has gone up without raising the boost level.
Heat loss is not the problem often suggested. Watson and Janota cited studies of marine applications trying to determine how much energy was being lost due to the use of watercooled manifolding and watercooled turbine housings. The results showed a less than 5% loss of energy to drive the turbine. An amount of energy that could more than be made up for by better flowing manifold designs.
The other thing, is that the flow in the exhaust manifold is highly unsteady. When the exhaust valve opens, it sends a spike of pressure into the manifold and the turbine bleeds it off. From the engine's point of view, the only thing it cares about is the pressure downstream of that particular exhaust valve at the moment of valve overlap, and at that instant in time, it could either be less than the "average" exhaust manifold pressure (because of constant bleed-down through the turbine) or more (because an adjacent cylinder just opened ITS exhaust valve).
And that brings another point … Picture a 4-banger engine with the usual log exhaust manifold before the turbo. During the moment of valve overlap … the exhaust valve on the next cylinder has already opened (before "that" cylinder's bottom-dead-centre and "this" cylinder's top-dead-centre) and it's in the process of blowing-down, sending exhaust manifold pressure skyward at the worst possible time.
The benefit of a tubular exhaust manifold might not be so much for resonance tuning, but rather to delay the effects of that pulse just long enough so that the cylinder which is just finishing its exhaust stroke, doesn't see it.
SO, if you feel you can defend your comments with proof and experience, go ahead. I'm pretty sure more z31's would make over 300whp if it weren't for godsend people like you giving out innacurate and unfounded information
thank youfor a little more technical explination of what i was trying to get across some people here are deathly affraid to think outside the box its rediculous just because the idea isnt decades old dosent mean that it will not work. im a member of several titan boards and there are a few guys running turbos on their trucks and they are all remote mounted and this is not because none of them had the fab skillsor money to build turbo manifolds it is because it is proven to work not clutter the engine bay and add all the extra heat to the engine compartment. one guy in perticular is one of the 2 guys that have made the corvette 90mm tb speak jap to work on the titan when big companies like stillen,bbk,and a few tuner shops cant figure out how to adjust the electronics or wire it so the technical knowledge is there as well as the lack of fear of thinking outside the box. its things like that that get aftermarket parts made for a nameplate there was no interest to make parts for this truck until one guy made headers and now there are 5 or 6 companies that make them there was no interest in doing a TB upgrade either untill 2 guys developed one and the aftermarket saw there was a demand and a decent power to be had now there are 3 companies trying to figure out what they did. point is people like nissanxrma that think if it hasnt been done a million times before it wont work is the reason our cars were completely ignored by the aftermarket face it if a vehicle that has been in exhistance for less than 6 yrs has more aftermarket support than one of nissans icon cars its because of no one showing an interest in trying something different so why would any company spend money developing parts when there is no interest
CAG8OR: (2010-01-16 22:51:49)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Sorry for the delay guys, took me a while to find the right box. The process to post pictures here is a PITA, does anyone have storage space that I an upload all of the pics too? Here are a few:
CAG8OR: (2010-01-16 23:02:17)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Couple more:
PurePontiacKid: (2010-01-17 05:47:02)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
now put them on an engine where they belong :nanan?re
260DET: (2010-01-17 09:55:30)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Look pretty good, wonder if they will fit in my engine bay, hmmmm. How much? If you send them overseas by mail they may have to go in two separate boxes, hard to tell, you may want to check with your post office about weight and size restrictions.
ZFast88Z: (2010-01-18 22:54:49)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
Those are for RHD cars, yes? I believe there is an issue with steering column interference on the USDM cars.
CAG8OR: (2010-01-18 23:28:45)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I am glad you can read. :nanan?re
ZFast88Z: (2010-01-18 23:31:57)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I stopped reading this thread because there was to much whining and pissing about using tubular headers with turbos, and the stock location and blah blah blah.
Im just waiting for pic updates so I can compliment him on the work he's doing.
PurePontiacKid: (2010-01-20 05:27:19)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
I get the impression that happens alot on these boards…
260DET: (2010-02-17 09:18:06)
Re: Tubular Headers to keep turbo in stock location
James, ended up getting a couple of your exhaust manifold flanges from Autobend, look good, thanks.
james: (2013-08-22 07:42:38)
Been a long time to drag up this thread right ?
Sure has, GT35 on Stock manifolds wasn't good enough for me .
V bands, Turbo Flange Flexi's have been ordered, Donuts, tight radi bends are sitting on my bench.
some rough sketch's for the design of the crossover have been done. It might seem hard to believe but the length's are just about perfectly equal on the secondary's CAD dosn't lie but of couse in the real metal it needs to be measured carefully many times.
[archived image: secondaydesign-unequal.png]
and a recap of the actual headers, now fully tig'd up
So watch out for progress, its been a while but many of you at Z31P now know that I get results on most everything i attempt.
G-E: (2013-08-22 08:44:40)
The bigger challenge is not getting discouraged when a select few poop on your head [archived image: smile.png]
james: (2013-08-22 08:59:39)
Ah yes, Having grown up a little bit with Z31P having internet arguments is just as much a part of Z31P as the 300zx or even the VG30ET itself.
All part of the process [archived image: icon6.png]
Building that collector is going to be interesting.
G-E: (2013-08-22 09:19:44)
How are you going to mount the turbo, v-band?
FlawleZ: (2013-08-22 15:00:56)
Very interesting and its refreshing to see someone put forth so much effort on a path less traveled.
I am wondering however, where exactly the turbo placement will be.
james: (2013-08-23 00:46:55)
You Know what, I don't actually know at this point, Near ish oe position but with increased clearance for air inlets and Oil drains and large turbine housings. Once the crossover is made I'm going to have to do mockups on the car and simple put it where it works.
G-E: (2013-08-23 01:06:54)
Shouldn't you do that backwards? fit the turbo and lead the pipe to it?
james: (2013-08-23 09:15:02)
I'm not really too concerned about it, I will make it happen somehow , havn't got the turbo flange yet.
Timbo_021: (2013-08-23 09:24:50)
That's mad dude, exactly what I wanna do when I eventually get a tig welder at home.
RedBeauty84ZX: (2013-08-23 14:26:37)
Curious to how this setup will sound/perform when completed. Good luck and keep us updated!
james: (2013-08-25 03:15:34)
Its come out pretty much how i wanted, plenum clearance isn't too much of an issue. Considering i have a 12mm ASSCO plenum spacer not installed in the pictures clearance will be even better than the photos show.
Full tac up pretty much done, I really need the V bands and flex's to arrive before i can go any further. Once that lot as had a test fit on the car It will be time to JIG up the turbo and figure out how the hell I'm going to position/ mount it.
[archived image: IMG_7979_zps57e2de80.jpg]
[archived image: IMG_7977_zps9b0f172b.jpg]
[archived image: IMG_7972_zps8d3944df.jpg]
I'm pleased with how it fits currently, So now you have had the first progress since 2009. Expect Big progress once i get the Turbo flange and V Band's.
Looking at a stock turbo manifold today the turbo position is going to be something like In between OEM and the AC location. The thing that concerns me about the stock location is the Oil drain angle.
So I'm going to revise my statement from Stock Location tubular headers to Low Mount Tubualr Headers.
G-E: (2013-08-25 04:00:41)
It may not be a big deal, but I would look at stepping up the pipe diameter where the two banks meet
And is that cut below the plenum for a v-band.. going to be really hard to play with the clamp in there if so… you'd be better served having one at each 3-to-1 collector, and keep the entire rear as 1 piece
james: (2013-08-25 04:11:46)
Hey GE, That is the plan, the V band at each 3-1 collector. The cut below the plenum is there on purpose. I can't progress the mockup untill my flexi bellows and V band Clamps Arrive.
Each side will have a Flexi bellows right after the 3-1 collector.
And its not shown in the mockup yet, but right after the 2-1 merge it will be stepping up a pipe size to continue to the turbo flange.
I guess i keep forgetting to explain stuff, It all seems common sense to me but i forget that people have a hard time trying to picture it.
Like this GE
[archived image: IMG_8004_zpsf45c0d85.jpg]
G-E: (2013-08-25 04:49:36)
That's not where the flex piping should be, it should be close to where the whole assembly moves away from the body, meaning after the turbo… unless you plan to mount the turbo to the body and have the engine flex away from it
james: (2013-08-25 04:59:04)
The Turbo is going to solid mounted to the engine block, right before the turbo flange there will be another flexi bellows, This means that the turbo's weight will NOT be pulling on any of the pipework. Its not stainless so the crack inducing expansion wont be as extreme either.
The pipework will be able to expand and contract naturally with no weight hanging off it. There is also going to be a support at the 2-1 collector.
Feel Free to post up a diagram of how you would do it though, I'm definitely open to idea's
Its not an easy build, and go easy on me I'm still working this stuff out as i go.
Timbo_021: (2013-08-25 05:16:03)
The pipes will crack with no flex joins there..
Careless: (2013-08-25 06:56:06)
this is a lot like the design I intend to do. i'm liking this.
except mine will go forward on the driver side.
are you trying to keep A/C as well?
james: (2013-08-25 07:47:12)
AC is Long gone, after doing some sketches and looking at photo's Foward on the drivers side might actually result in the least amount of piping and the easiest way of mounting it.
I suppose now that i have got this far, there is not much point making it worse on purpose by mounting it so low down.
Careless: (2013-08-25 15:27:43)
i don't think you'd be making anything worse. it's a matter of fitment at this point. if you can deal with the fitment of the turbo being down low, and you can do a laaaaaarge turbine outlet pipe because you don't have a steering shaft there… i think it would be good to continue on your path.
if you mount it forward on the driver side, you will lose even more of the equality between the two sides, because there's going to be a long connector pipe going from pass side around back and meeting up with the turbo flange. so thats one reason why your current goal and setup might fare better for you.
Tomakze: (2013-08-25 18:27:38)
I've got to see how these turn out, so far, they are beautiful. Fantastic work!
michaelp: (2013-08-26 20:08:33)
Reminds me a lot of the IMSA manifolds, what I've been able to see of them anyways.
james: (2013-08-27 00:25:33)
There was a you tube video posted of an IMSA engine /manifolds running in a sand rail, that vid showed the headers pretty good. The sound was wild too.
james: (2013-08-27 00:29:27)
[http://[video=youtube_share;I5ccWSG289M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5ccWSG289M[/video]] [archived image: yt_logo_rgb_light.png]]
michaelp: (2013-08-27 02:24:34)
I don't think those are the actual IMSA manifolds, as the IMSA engine was intercooled and the turbos were actually low-mounted.
james: (2013-08-27 05:43:21)
Ah , Noob moment, The sound is inspiring to me anyway. Either way, his fabricated manifolds are still a work of functional art, as is his whole engine setup there.
slammedfc: (2013-08-27 06:37:12)
I recommend going with TWO flex bellows. one on each of your y pipe runners then solid mount to the block as you had planned. Cant wait to see how this turns out. Very nice work. Not to be stereotypical but NZ tuning rarely disappoints. I look up to you guys over there!
james: (2013-08-30 06:42:06)
Got a little Package from my Friends at ASCO,
Before anybody asks I only ordered one Bellows, it was my own fault for not checking that i actually had room for 2 of them. No big Deal. Now i have an extra good excuse to get a Because Race car shirt or something.
With more parts on hand I can have another fit up on the bench, then i need to find some time to strip down the manifolds and turbo on the car so I can do a proper on Vehicle test fit.
[archived image: IMG_8006_zpsbb0f1c68.jpg]
nismopu: (2013-08-30 06:51:04)
Good to see everything made it there! Sorry about the jank t3 flange, I couldn't find my 3d profiled ones ANYWHERE!!! If i find them though I will send it with the second bellows. lol!
james: (2013-08-30 07:14:21)
Flange is awesome, I'm impressed how beefy it is. 5 mins and my hand tools it will look as good as your CNC one !
Parker: (2013-08-30 13:37:38)
Nice progress; I've been lurking this thread for a while.
If the final product turns out well and allows for keeping the A/C, AND can be fabbed for significantly less than the cost of the Avante headers ($3500!!!) then I am definitely interested in a set of these. A/C retention is an absolute must for me though.
les_joey_paul: (2013-08-30 13:57:49)
Looks awesome! Keep it up brother. (:
james: (2013-08-30 23:38:53)
Yeah Its looking unlikely to keep the AC, I could build it like that but I don't have Any AC parts anymore myself. I'm going to opt for fitment that gives more direct IC piping. 5 years ago my intentions were to work with a stock look but now that I'm chasing power that's slowly going out the window.
james: (2013-08-31 08:46:41)
Had a bit of a play with the V bands today, I'm definitely going to run the LHS V Band where it is I'm happy with that one, but i need to rework the RHS a bit because I want the Vand closer to the merge collector and I would like to put the flexi where the V band sits in that photo. But i was getting clearance issues with the plenum.
I don't have a plenum spacer shown in that photo, but I still want a reasonable air gap. Some time on the bench is required to get that sorted out.
[archived image: IMG_8023_zps86127f5d.jpg]
michaelp: (2013-09-01 02:54:42)
I dig it. Keep up the good work.
james: (2013-09-01 04:06:18)
Well I can honestly confirm that Stock location equal length headers are not possible.
So now that it has been put to bed I have some sweet progress from today, Gone with the full top mount AC Turbo positon and Im loving it.
Pics will do the talking. it has been test fitted to the parts block with no clearance issues .
[archived image: IMG_8071_zps8adb8503.jpg]
[archived image: IMG_8061_zps1f61bf7a.jpg]
[archived image: IMG_8059_zps7aaaa134.jpg]
[archived image: IMG_8052_zps35600fca.jpg]
[archived image: IMG_8054_zpsccc6d470.jpg]
G-E: (2013-09-01 05:27:45)
What size turbo you going with? This should be able to spool something significantly bigger equally fast
james: (2013-09-01 05:40:34)
Take no notice of the T3, i have a GT3582 Journal bearing with a 0.62 hotside on the car at the moment.
On the cast manifolds i could get 8-10 psi by about 3000rpm with the GT35. I'm hoping for a huge improvement.
300zxturboftw: (2013-09-01 17:55:46)
I'm impressed. ..turned out a lot better than I thought it was
james: (2013-09-02 00:36:17)
I have run out of materials for the time being, but the next thing to to fabricate a couple of double slip joints to connect the Turbo flange and piping to the 2-1 Y merge.
Loosely speaking I think the best place for the double slip joint will be between the 2 hold down brackets, the turbo flange will be bolted solid to the old AC M10 bolt holes in the head, And the support brackets will be drilled to 11.5mm to account for thermal expansion ( as per maximum boosts recommendation )
This should alleviate thermal stress and still provide solid anchoring. Looks like I will need one more 2" v band to go on the end of the 2-1 collector.
Oh, and this is it on an actual engine block
[archived image: index_zps7b53fc81.jpg]
[archived image: invidia_header_slip_joint-w800_h800_zps133944a5.jpg]
[archived image: V__0BF5_zps16fd371b.jpg]
[archived image: V__F3F5_zpsc1278673.jpg]
z-flash: (2013-09-02 01:12:55)
Nice work!!!
quicksilverz31: (2013-09-02 04:49:54)
God this setup keeps getting better. Keep up the good work, can't wait to see this finished and running.
floridaZ: (2013-09-02 08:46:49)
What ended up being the problem? Interference with the turbo to the manifold themselves?
james: (2013-09-02 10:24:37)
Yeah, the flange would be stuck directly to the manifold with no way of feeding the flange. It just wasn't going to work. So for the sake of making these things happen after 6 years I went with the tried and proven AC position.
Not as much " I proved i could do it" as i had hoped, so im going to settle for just normal totally bad ass one of a kind maximum effort turbo headers
james: (2013-09-08 09:30:16)
Quite a few changes, basically re did the whole "Y" part of the merge. Lengths are equal withing about 2-3mm
[archived image: IMG_8090_zpsc6071c22.jpg]
one of the slip joins ( unfinished but good enough for an on the car test fit )
[archived image: IMG_8093_zpsbbfb451e.jpg]
And the ther slip join - again unfinished but good enough to determine turbo position once its on the car.
[archived image: IMG_8088_zps3ce93300.jpg]
Hopefully have Flexi's soon
then its all about fitting them up in the engine bay, on the actual VG they will be running on, flexi's will be installed very very last to provide a last chance for crucial alignments.
I know why I Sat on these so long, its my 3rd weekend fitting these up.
zdriver_kado: (2013-09-08 10:25:08)
I have been thinking… could one make the runners go forward toward the front instead of going back like the stock setup without much issue? Wouldn't it be sweet if you could position the engine slightly further toward the firewall, have less manifold piping because your manifold runners are facing forward and then go divided flange/twin scroll/QSV. I am guessing PS pump might be the biggest obstacle however just imagining it in my head it seems very doable.
james: (2013-09-08 11:04:51)
That setup you described has been done several times, Satan, Flawlez , streetfighter and Mike G have done it like that before. This thread is all about rear mount
G-E: (2013-09-08 11:40:09)
My major complaint with this setup is one of the main benefits you add to the exhaust in trying to equalize lengths, you take away by making it single-scroll
Aside from that the fabrication itself looks very good
james: (2013-09-09 06:53:28)
I was leaning more towards a quick spool valve and perhaps a 0.82 divided turbine housing.
but that doesn't matter, What matters is getting it on the car and having a working Z31 again, and enjoying the sound it makes.
Timbo_021: (2013-09-09 08:37:56)
This may be a silly question but if its an equal length manifold, all the exhaust pulses will be separated so why do you need to make the pipe bigger from the primary pipe size? Seems like its not needed.
james: (2013-09-15 07:29:50)
It seems to be the generally accepted way of doing it, my own reason for doing it was that 2 1/4 fits onto the turbo flange perfectly for fabrication.
james: (2013-10-20 05:40:05)
You have all been waiting for this
[archived image: WP_20131020_001_zpsb6a636b3.jpg]
[archived image: WP_20131020_004_zpsc5ad66dd.jpg]
[archived image: WP_20131020_006_zps95cce09f.jpg]
[archived image: WP_20131020_013_zps04aba45f.jpg]
Some ovious issues to be sorted with the brake master cylinder and some new brake lines need to be made up. But to be fair, these were made on the bench and for them to fit that close to the first time around is almost a miracle.
The drivers side is hitting on an exhaust stud that needs shortened down so the clearance issues may not be as bad as shown in the photo.
G-E: (2013-10-20 06:51:24)
You'll need to relocate all the wires and hoses on the strut tower sides down to the frame rail and cover them with a solid heatshield, polishes stainless sheet would look the best but any cheap aluminum should work as long as it stands off enough from everything
Looks like the downpipe will be a pain to make
One option for the brake master is to go boosterless, if you upgrade to the z32 master, you will have more fluid flowing to the fronts, so you can change the pedal ratio to make it easier to press
james: (2013-10-20 07:50:18)
yeah it's all part of it,already relocated the fuel filter,vac tank and power steering hoses. I'm going to get a bunch of fire sleeve covering for the wiring then make a bunch of heat shields downpipe will be cake once I have a v band flange welded to the turbine housing. Turbo needs to come toward the front a bit but that's what test fit is all about.
G-E: (2013-10-20 14:19:09)
BTW if you do put an external wastegate, a good place for it might be towards the back, and run the dump tube straight down into the downpipe… well not "straight" but you know what I mean [archived image: smile.png]
Black 89Turbo: (2013-10-20 15:09:08)
RX7 brake booster.
BLOZ UP: (2013-10-21 21:02:31)
Wow, I missed this thread. Great job. Too bad they go around the wrong end of the motor. [archived image: wink.png]
I get 15psi at 3000rpms on my manifolds with a BB 50 trim T3/T04E
BLOZ UP: (2013-10-21 21:13:20)
If they are equal length, the single scroll won't negate all of the beneficial effects. Depends a lot on where the final merge is though.
slammedfc: (2013-10-22 05:57:22)
Just curious. When you welded this up did you have the heads bolted to the LIM without using the block? Good stuff
james: (2013-10-22 07:27:53)
Hey Slammed
That is correct for the crossover, but the headers themselves were final welded from a cylinder head only.
My whole crossover is only tac welded, I am borrowing a welded so that the FINAL fit up is performed on my actual car. I did quite a lot with the HeadsLim jig but as you know you can only do so much without cracking a few nuts loose and bolting parts up for real.
Open headers test fire video
[http://[video=youtube_share;4A6MJ4hvpMY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A6MJ4hvpMY[/video]] [archived image: yt_logo_rgb_light.png]]
james: (2013-10-23 06:15:00)
Had a bit of a day messing around with some plumbing and pipework
made up the 3/4 lines to the Valve Cover / Catch tanks, chopped up the coil bracket to relocate it to the crossbar by the hood latch,
Also did some mock up pipework so i can work backwards for a final turbo position.
Starting to look like a real engine bay now, its screaming out for a gutted plenum but oh well.
[archived image: WP_20131023_0061_zpsd11abcb5.jpg]
[archived image: WP_20131023_0031_zpsb4dd21fa.jpg]
les_joey_paul: (2014-02-18 21:18:36)
Dude looks SICK. great job
joshers21: (2014-10-17 18:30:52)
Dead thread revive. Do you have any updates and run videos?
darryl rice: (2014-10-18 00:57:46)
Very creative
Good job.
Downpipe will be interesting to see
But you have a high creativity ability
I am thinking about trying A manifold system myself
james: (2014-10-19 03:44:29)
No Video's with a turbo yet, just ones with a blank off plate so i can move it around the garage and stuff
I will see what i can dig up. Some of the its in my build thread too.