Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums engine-mechanical-aa/boring a vg30 out to vg33 will Not work
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defrag010: (2008-05-15 02:20:29)
I was dialing in the boring bar today, and testing the replacement 60 degree v6 base to make sure it's true. Threw up an old junk vg30 block, and was on the way to VG33 size to see what wall thickness was like. I got to 3.56" and decided to check and see where it was at. cyl#1 turned out to be about .155" on the thrust side and between .140" and .145" everywhere else. I would hate to bore another .042" out of that, that would make the walls less than an 8th of an inch in some spots. [archived image: redface.png]
so, I don't know if there is already documentation on this.. but I see this question thrown around all the time on all sorts of forums, so I thought I'd post up a definite answer… it's going to get THIN!
Steve88t: (2008-05-15 02:24:38)
Would you be willing to continue until you found the breakthrough thickness so we can document at least one case of wall thickness?
defrag010: (2008-05-15 02:45:29)
Sure! The bore gets thin at the top right below the deck, then tapers down in thickness to the bottom of the cylinder… so if it breaks through any, it will be right below the deck.
If I have enough time, I might see if I can cut all of the cylinder out and see if there is enough meat at the bottom of the cylinder and the deck to knock in a larger wet sleeve. That would be sick, a big bore vg!
VG36ET: (2008-05-15 21:37:32)
WHat he said.........God forbid if you want some really basic machine work done by a competent person nowdays.....cha-ching! Even the idiots charage an arm and a leg.
Anyway, I have dreams of a sleeved 100mm bore VG, but that'll probably never happen. It sounds like 87.5 is the max bore one would wanna go on a VG30E, for a boosted build or an N/A! I'd love to know the max bore on a VG33E block.
defrag010: (2008-05-16 06:23:39)
okay, the VG30 broke through at 3.78". broke through right below the deck. VG30 will be okay to run all the way up to 90mm bore. You might be able to get away with VH45 pistons if you checked to make sure your walls were okay.
VG33 has THICK walls.. they measured out at about .300ish thickness on a stock bore block. You could bore a VG33 all the way up to 99mm if you wanted to and you'd still have 5/32" to 1/8" cylinder walls. That would make it a 3.8 liter!!! haha
You don't have to drop $$ to get machine work done, basic stuff like crank grinding and boring/honing is cheap, but also, cheap can be relative. our shop charges 89$ to grind a crank, and 10$ per hole to bore and 5$ per hole to hone, 50$ to surface each deck… so you could get away with a totally machined block and ground crank for under 300 bucks. Most prices are similar to ours, except for the big name race guys who do machine work, and all you're paying for there is a name.
honestly, if it was my engine.. I'd rather oil the pistons/walls by adding a little more rod bearing clearance with a little more rod side clearance than put squirters in. I hate squirters, they are nothing but a failure point IMO. lots of engines are running high hp w/o squirters, I don't think not having them is a restriction. I always block 'em off, I'd rather have pressure than oil on the bottom of my pistons. I built a 4g63 for a buddy last year with blocked off squirters, and he's running 25 psi on a T88 and hitting high 9's in the 1/4 with no problems.
Evil Z31: (2008-05-16 12:14:07)
[quote]VG36ET wrote:
That idea wouldn't be a big deal if one had access to a machine like you do. But people want so much money just to do basic machine work these days it's hard to justify.It sounds like 87.5 is the max bore one would wanna go on a VG30E, for a boosted build or an N/A!
I have 88mm's from Wiseco.
Great post defrag!!!
Steve88t: (2008-05-16 18:51:28)
[quote]MachZ wrote:
You don't have to drop $$ to get machine work done, basic stuff like crank grinding and boring/honing is cheap, but also, cheap can be relative. our shop charges 89$ to grind a crank, and 10$ per hole to bore and 5$ per hole to hone, 50$ to surface each deck… so you could get away with a totally machined block and ground crank for under 300 bucks.
You're in Tulsa, right? I may be visiting you some day. :mrgreen:
- edit* It's been pointed out I am a fucktard and forgot defrag was in Tulsa. One of these days soon I would love to see the truck or this block you are cutting up.
Evil, I've got 88mm Ross in mine. I've heard of people doing 89mm in a VG30 but most of that information was years ago and I don't remember where I read it.
VG36ET: (2008-05-16 21:00:51)
Uh Yeah......... an N/A VG33 with 12:1 compression(93 octane) and a 99MM bore would be tons of freaking fun and should reach or exceeed the 300 hp mark with all the bolt ons(Russ cam gears, thorley headers, etc., etc.)! I dunno, I'd want thicker cylinders then that, even on an n/a engine with no nitrous.
Defrag - Great post bro. Around here you pay through the nose for top shelf work or you take your chances on joe-blo.
This should definitely be a sticky as the question *How much can you overbore a VG30E and/or 33E* has only be asked on the net five million times! Good work.
Steve88t: (2008-05-17 04:03:14)
How about we keep this thread going with some decent info and ideas. Then I'll clean it up in a few days and make it a sticky type thingymicjigger.
Oh and VG36's idea on the 3.8 NA is pimp. That would REALLY be cool.
phxZ31: (2008-05-17 05:43:53)
uhh yeah.. I would LOVE a 3.8L N/A VG. Holy shit, that would be my dream Z right there.
Paeco makes a stroker VG. Any idea what could be created with Paeco's crank and rods in combination with a 99mm bore on a VG33?? A 400ZX maybe?
defrag010: (2008-05-17 06:07:14)
yep, I live over by TU. won't be here for much longer, though, July 31st is my last day in T-town.
I was bored again today, and crunched some numbers and came up with a way to make a 3.8L with off-the-shelf parts. STD bore LS1 pistons, grind the crank so that the rods are an undersize of 2.00 SBC small journal, then get some 6" SBC small journal rods and hone the small end out for the ls1 pins, and narrow the big end to fit on the VG crank's rod throws.... BAM. cool thing about that is you can get shelf parts like forged ls1 pistons and h-beam rods and what not. That's just a daydream, though, usually there are always snags that pop up when creating a frankenstein like that. one I can think of off the top of my head is custom headgaskets that you'd need for the big bore.
for the sake of keeping the topic alive, I'll agree to disagree about oil squirters. People can melt pistons with anything from a bad tune, to too high of intake air temps, to knock, to just not having the right alloy pistons that can take the cylinder pressure. There are tons and tons of road race/endurance engines out there with the right setup and no oil squirters that live up to ungodly abuse. squirters are a good band-aid for not-so-ideal cylinder temp/pressure conditions, but IMO you don't need them if your whole system (engine, fuel, intake) are set up properly. If I was buliding an endurance engine, I would use 2618 pistons that yield a very low compression, give them a little more than usual wall clearance, and have a nice water injection setup on the intake.
VG36ET: (2008-05-19 19:52:04)
You read my mind bro. One of the guys I wheel with was talking about the Paeco stroker kit. With a 99mm Bore on a VG33E and a 89.4MM stroke with their mod'd crank you'd have a 4.13L engine........(insert evil cackle) hahaha!
defrag010: (2008-05-20 23:20:50)
how much would you think a 3.8L vg shortblock would go for?
G-E: (2008-05-21 21:35:20)
make one and find out
SATAN: (2008-05-23 23:23:46)
[quote]G-E wrote:
how much would you think a 3.8L vg shortblock would go for?make one and find out
Sell for or cost to build?
I am assuming sell for. If I were to put in the time and money and then sell it, with forged internals… $3500 short block only.
phxZ31: (2008-05-24 03:16:43)
[quote]SATAN wrote: [quote=G-E]
how much would you think a 3.8L vg shortblock would go for?make one and find out
Sell for or cost to build?
I am assuming sell for. If I were to put in the time and money and then sell it, with forged internals… $3500 short block only.
Sounds about right to me. I would probably want at least that for the research, parts, time, and in order to guarantee it could all be done with the best quality work possible.
defrag010: (2008-05-24 07:54:24)
ah, I'm just wondering what somebody would actually pay for it if I built one. I tried to sell a rebuilt vg30 on here like last year that had forged pistons, and I didn't get any offer that was over 700 shipped. LOL… so I kinda had z31 people pegged as being on the "budget" side of buying stuff for their cars (no offense).
So you guys would dish out some $$ for a 3.8L vg if someone else already built it?
phxZ31: (2008-05-24 17:19:32)
No, I would want to buy the parts and build it myself. That way I don't want to kill somebody else if it breaks down… plus I just wouldn't feel right about letting somebody else build my motor. So far, everything done to my car has been done by myself and I, and I would really like to keep it that way.
All that, AND I'll never have all the money at one time to buy one already built. Its easier on my wallet if I can buy the parts and assemble it on my own schedule.
SATAN: (2008-05-25 17:03:54)
This is exactly right. The problem is, the people that potentially have the money to drop on something like this, dont want to be the test subjects on something that has not been tried before. Also the people the do have the money for something like this are very VERY few and far between.
People here aren't generally going to dish out big bucks for something that is already built. This is why I only build things AFTER people pay for it. There are times people don't like waiting for stuff but, what is worse having them wait for it after they pay, or you paying to have it done and then waiting for someone to buy it?
The z31 crowd is a broke ass crowd, my self included.
G-E: (2008-05-26 23:52:18)
better to make one for yourself, and offer it for sale to guage its value, but not actually make any to sell without a big deposit
SATAN: (2008-05-27 01:30:35)
Big ass deposit meaning - the entire cost to put it together.
VG30E-S13: (2008-12-19 05:58:40)
Hello, newbie on the forum, I'm not new to the VG crowd though. I'm currently in the process of putting a W-Block VG30e, in a 1991 240sx, I only have the motor mounts I need to weld in. I stumbled across this article, I was wondering if one could really bore the vg33 all the way out to 99mm, that would be insane with some good head work and a nice velocity stack intake design. Anyway just trying to keep the thread alive.
ZFast88Z: (2008-12-19 11:16:13)
This has been answered in another thread. I have a Vg33 sitting in the shop right now waiting for pistons to show up. Bore is currently 97mm and will be 97.5mm once pistons show up. There is still plenty of material on the thrust side to continue to bore the block out to 99mm. However at this point it should be considered a race only engine, because should anything happen (at 99mm) your going to junk the block.
comrade_charlie: (2008-12-22 07:38:07)
[quote]defrag010 wrote:
one I can think of off the top of my head is custom headgaskets that you'd need for the big bore.
So with there being no custom head gasket available, there is no way to get a 3.8L up and running? I don't think you could modify the stock one that much. What are people planning on doing for the HG, I don't know, I don't have a head gasket just laying around to look at.
floridaZ: (2008-12-22 09:25:33)
It wouldn't be very hard to have a custom set of headgaskets made up… Jason might even be able to have a MLS set made up. I doubt that it would be so different that it would warrant any development.
defrag010: (2008-12-26 01:03:53)
cometic will make you a gasket with whatever bore you want
badboyz31: (2009-09-17 03:57:52)
well guys I need to keep this thread alive because I think, I'm going to be the one to do this, and I will proudly be the test subject for such a great engine.
well to start off I should hopefully getting a vg33 bare block this weekend or so. First off would to actually get the block bored out to work with the 4.0L stroker kit for it, with a not so high compression for boost.
plans after would be try to twin turbo charge it.
well I really have someone to actually help me build this, but im going to try and do as much as possible myself.
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-17 04:07:52)
UMMM HI! WELCOME TO LAST YEAR!
The engine sitting in my car is a 97.5mm bore stock stroke VG33. This is the engine that will be utilizing the twin GT35R setup. My block had enough wall thickness to bore it all the way to 99mm and leave sufficiant wall thickness for a decent amount of boost.
Im not a fan of offset grinding a crank to increase stroke. Therefore I wont use the stroker kit.
SATAN: (2009-09-17 04:14:27)
[quote]ZFast88Z wrote:
well guys I need to keep this thread alive because I think, I'm going to be the one to do this, and I will proudly be the test subject for such a great engine.
well to start off I should hopefully getting a vg33 bare block this weekend or so. First off would to actually get the block bored out to work with the 4.0L stroker kit for it, with a not so high compression for boost.
plans after would be try to twin turbo charge it.
well I really have someone to actually help me build this, but im going to try and do as much as possible myself.
UMMM HI! WELCOME TO LAST YEAR!
The engine sitting in my car is a 97.5mm bore stock stroke VG33. This is the engine that will be utilizing the twin GT35R setup. My block had enough wall thickness to bore it all the way to 99mm and leave sufficiant wall thickness for a decent amount of boost.
Im not a fan of offset grinding a crank to increase stroke. Therefore I wont use the stroker kit.
Is that the stroker kit he is talking about? I have only heard of one stroker kit and I THINK it is from JUN??? I don't know. But, yeah if you are planning on making big power, then offset grinding the crank is not the best coarse of action IMO.
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-17 04:25:34)
PAECO offers a VG stroker kit that increase stroke by .250 inch. When I did the math when i first started overboring the VG33 I found it was possible to make a 4.0L VG30 when combining the stroker crank with a 99mm "Safe" overbore.
badboyz31: (2009-09-17 04:27:32)
[quote]SATAN wrote: [quote=ZFast88Z]
well guys I need to keep this thread alive because I think, I'm going to be the one to do this, and I will proudly be the test subject for such a great engine.
well to start off I should hopefully getting a vg33 bare block this weekend or so. First off would to actually get the block bored out to work with the 4.0L stroker kit for it, with a not so high compression for boost.
plans after would be try to twin turbo charge it.
well I really have someone to actually help me build this, but im going to try and do as much as possible myself.
UMMM HI! WELCOME TO LAST YEAR!
The engine sitting in my car is a 97.5mm bore stock stroke VG33. This is the engine that will be utilizing the twin GT35R setup. My block had enough wall thickness to bore it all the way to 99mm and leave sufficiant wall thickness for a decent amount of boost.
Im not a fan of offset grinding a crank to increase stroke. Therefore I wont use the stroker kit.
Is that the stroker kit he is talking about? I have only heard of one stroker kit and I THINK it is from JUN??? I don't know. But, yeah if you are planning on making big power, then offset grinding the crank is not the best coarse of action IMO.
well, I know this is a thread from last year, but I still have not heard of anyone doing it yet and actually completing it, but maybe I'm not reading enough. I still want to do this though, because I have nothing better to do with my life outside of school and work.
ZFast88Z do you have a build thread for this engine?
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-17 04:33:51)
No, I stated up front when I started the build of this car, that no pictures would be posted until after the build is completed.
I dont mind answering any questions you may have. I will tell you up front that you will be needing custom head gaskets and custom pistons and that custom means $$$
badboyz31: (2009-09-17 04:41:54)
[quote]ZFast88Z wrote:
ZFast88Z do you have a build thread for this engine?
No, I stated up front when I started the build of this car, that no pictures would be posted until after the build is completed.
I dont mind answering any questions you may have. I will tell you up front that you will be needing custom head gaskets and custom pistons and that custom means $$$
ok sweet, i actually cannot post anymore pics of the crap being done to my Z until after its done, according to the person helping build my Z up. Yes I know what custom means, and I mean I have done all I want to the Z as of now so, I was pursuing and researching this and have sourced the vg33 block. So I'm going to go ahead and go through with it. Only person I will be talking to about it, is the only other person I know doing it and that would be you my friend.
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-17 04:55:39)
Reference this thread. I posted a lot of information in it.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13186
badboyz31: (2009-09-17 05:40:54)
thanks a lot
Careless: (2009-09-17 05:50:04)
Actually, from what PAECO says about their .250 inch stroker kit, if you use the supplied VG30DETT 97.5 mm pistons and the factory Z32 or forged Z32 rods, you will get a 4.0 litre.
So if we take into account that the stroke and bore on the Z32 is the same as the Z31 motor, and the cranks from either will fit the VG33 and allow for the same capacity, then the stroker kit with 97.5 mm pistons would reach 4.0 litres in much the same way as it would if it were on a VG30DETT, would it not?
I'm sure you did more finite calculations than what I read regarding the stroker kit that was for sale, and from my RB30 research, I can agree with your calculations that differ from theirs. Heck, piston manufacturers for the RB26 can't even get their combustion chamber volumes right… So I'm glad you went ahead and made that VG38. That should be a monster, and would really show the potential of the later castings.
I'm kinda glad I didn't go that route because the car has now 650km on it, and it made me 120 dollars today, so it's slowly starting to become a tool that I could have used a long time ago (I've never actually had my own car to drive wherever I wanted, whenever I wanted, so time was a factor in my build).
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with, Zfast
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-18 23:38:30)
The cost associated with building this engine was far more then I care to discuss. It is definately NOT the best option out there, as Im sure just as much power could be made with a VG30 using the same turbocharger setup. A higher pressure ratio may be neccesary, but Im sure its obtainable. Would I do it again the same way? Absolutely. Would I recommend anyone do it? Not entirely. I would recommend this approach for someone who wants to use maybe a smaller single turbo, and achieve higher HP because of the increased displacement (say for street racing reasons).
SATAN: (2009-09-19 02:46:56)
And this is my approach. I figure just cram as much air into the engine as you can. You can make anything breath with enough pressure behind it! :lol:
badboyz31: (2009-09-19 02:53:25)
To blow all six pistons right out the hood, for a new ventilation system. :nanan?re
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-19 02:55:02)
Its all about your PLAN.....Pressure Length Area Number
I just chose to increase 3 out of the 4, instead of 2 like you. We all know that 75% is better then 50% right. :nanan?re
SATAN: (2009-09-19 03:04:27)
Zfast… What formula are you using? Cause those aren't the numbers I get. They are close, but not the same.
Formula for piston speed is as follows
Piston speed in FPM = stroke in inches x RPM/6
Stroke 3.27 (83mm) x 8000 = 26160 divided by 6 = 4360 Feet per minute. Oh yes, and it is feet per minute not second LOL.
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-19 03:13:12)
I was using 3.2677"
And yes, it is feet per minute…I just like going fast. I am allowed one retard moment a day right?
SATAN: (2009-09-19 03:23:36)
[quote]ZFast88Z wrote:
HOLY SHIT DUDE, MY PISTON IS FASTER THAN MY CAR!!!!!! :nanan?re
Even then I get 4356.9333 FPM. You sir have run out of retarded moments for the day! :lol:
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-19 03:30:19)
Considering neither move, wouldnt it be a tie? :nanan?re
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-19 03:33:01)
So I do the math myself, and have determined the calculator must be wrong. I get the same answer as you do.
SATAN: (2009-09-19 03:36:31)
Ok good LOL. I had to double check myself to make sure. :lol:
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-19 03:39:55)
[quote]SATAN wrote:
So I do the math myself, and have determined the calculator must be wrong. I get the same answer as you do.
Ok good LOL. I had to double check myself to make sure. :lol:
Ill check all the other information in the morning by hand and verify the math is right. Funny thing is I just switched the units on the calculator from inch to mm and then the FPM came out properly. Weird.
I will edit in the morning if other changes are needed.
raracing1: (2009-09-19 03:56:26)
HI I do not have all the time of the world but why do you just start with a vg33 long block it`s heaven!
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-19 04:11:28)
That's exactly what I started with. I then bored it out to 97.5mm making for a VG37ETT.
Careless: (2009-09-19 04:46:52)
I was going by what the paeco kit had as it's specs in the auction. They were definately 97.5mm pistons. As stated, I'm sure you've done more math on it, and I know companies can be wrong in their assessment of the final displacement of an engine in many areas of their calculation. So I could trust your calcs moreso than an ebay auction 8) you're actually building the thing, right? But as you calculated. if the Paeco is 89mm, and the action it says 97.5, that would mean the auction was dead on @ 4 litres… They did not mention what is required. Maybe ductile iron sleeves that protrude well into the coolant jackets. Again, I'm not sure if that's a viable option, but the calculations point to it being possible. Whether or not the block can take it is another story!
I went through the same thing trying to get good pistons for my high-comp RB30. I am thinking of having it stroked and getting longer rods and shorter pistons… to bump up the displacement. I've not calculated what it will turn out to be, but if I can have a high comp RB33DE, that would be awesome.
I'm looking at building it up in the next year after I return from australia. I'll get a good idea of what's available there, and I'll tell my relatives to keep an eye out for me or purchase parts for me and ship them when I'm ready if they're willing to do so!
[quote]ZFast88Z wrote:
Actually, from what PAECO says about their .250 inch stroker kit, if you use the supplied VG30DETT 97.5 mm pistons and the factory Z32 or forged Z32 rods, you will get a 4.0 litre.
Are you sure they didnt say 87.5MM pistons? The VG30DETT is an 87mm bore. I have never checked the wall thickness of one but I cant imagine there would be enough material to bore out to 97.5mm (considering the VG30ET cannot come anywhere close to that dimension)
So if we take into account that the stroke and bore on the Z32 is the same as the Z31 motor, and the cranks from either will fit the VG33 and allow for the same capacity, then the stroker kit with 97.5 mm pistons would reach 4.0 litres in much the same way as it would if it were on a VG30DETT, would it not?
Some math for you:
Bore Stroke Displacement
87mm (stock) 83mm (stock) 2.99L(stock)
87mm 89mm (Paeco) 3.19L
87.5mm 89mm 3.22L
91.5mm (VG33) 89mm 3.52L
97.5mm 83mm 3.72L
97.5mm 89mm 4.00L
99.5mm (MAX) 89mm 4.17L
Piston Speed:
Stroke RPM Piston Speed
83mm 6000RPM 3254 FPM
83mm 7000RPM 3797 FPM
83mm 8000RPM 4339 FPM
89mm 6000RPM 3503 FPM
89mm 7000RPM 4087 FPM
89mm 8000RPM 4671 FPM
When building an engine, I prefer to use 4500 FPM as the maximum piston speed. I know a lot of guys building drag race engines are well into the 5500FPM range. I have personally turned a 347" Small Block Ford to 9000RPM. Thats 5079FPM. The reason I choose 4500FPM as my maximum RPM (for a street/strip engine) is IMO its the best for both performance and reliability. I expect to shift the VG at 8500RPM, unless there is signifcant power made above that point. Then I will re-evalute.
The reasons I didnt choose to use the stroker kit is three fold. I dont need the lower RPM torque offered from using a longer stroke, I dont like the idea of offset grinding a crankshaft to increase stroke, and the piston speed will limit the max RPM that I will feel comfortable using. As it is, I am worried about the integrity of the crankshaft. :twisted:
[quote:30opqelo]I'm kinda glad I didn't go that route because the car has now 650km on it, and it made me 120 dollars today, so it's slowly starting to become a tool that I could have used a long time ago (I've never actually had my own car to drive wherever I wanted, whenever I wanted, so time was a factor in my build).
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with, Zfast
The cost associated with building this engine was far more then I care to discuss. It is definately NOT the best option out there, as Im sure just as much power could be made with a VG30 using the same turbocharger setup. A higher pressure ratio may be neccesary, but Im sure its obtainable. Would I do it again the same way? Absolutely. Would I recommend anyone do it? Not entirely. I would recommend this approach for someone who wants to use maybe a smaller single turbo, and achieve higher HP because of the increased displacement (say for street racing reasons).[/quote:30opqelo]
raracing1: (2009-09-26 06:16:34)
[quote]ZFast88Z wrote:
HI I do not have all the time of the world but why do you just start with a vg33 long block it`s heaven!
That's exactly what I started with. I then bored it out to 97.5mm making for a VG37ETT.
VG33 is all ready on the boring edge of the main cap support I deffinitively don`t recomend to go further than .020 or let your crank go away! I mean it.
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-26 16:46:41)
[quote]raracing1 wrote: [quote=ZFast88Z]
HI I do not have all the time of the world but why do you just start with a vg33 long block it`s heaven!
That's exactly what I started with. I then bored it out to 97.5mm making for a VG37ETT.
VG33 is all ready on the boring edge of the main cap support I deffinitively don`t recomend to go further than .020 or let your crank go away! I mean it.
LOL Oh ok. Let me go unbore my block.
-Strike-: (2009-09-26 17:00:36)
I think he meant the VG30 hah. The 33 block has a lot of meat.
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-26 17:17:30)
Im really starting to wonder if anyone reads any of my posts in this or the other VG33 boring thread. I gave average wall thickness, and all the other information you need to know on boring the VG33 out to larger displacements, yet there is always a million and 1 questions and opinions on what Can and Cant be done.
SATAN: (2009-09-26 17:32:53)
[quote]ZFast88Z wrote:
I think he meant the VG30 hah. The 33 block has a lot of meat.
Im really starting to wonder if anyone reads any of my posts in this or the other VG33 boring thread. I gave average wall thickness, and all the other information you need to know on boring the VG33 out to larger displacements, yet there is always a million and 1 questions and opinions on what Can and Cant be done.
You know what that means right? Don't post anything else until its done… Then when it is done, post up info, then people say it can't be done… You can say "Oh really? Take a look…"
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-26 17:43:19)
[quote]SATAN wrote: [quote=ZFast88Z]
I think he meant the VG30 hah. The 33 block has a lot of meat.
Im really starting to wonder if anyone reads any of my posts in this or the other VG33 boring thread. I gave average wall thickness, and all the other information you need to know on boring the VG33 out to larger displacements, yet there is always a million and 1 questions and opinions on what Can and Cant be done.
You know what that means right? Don't post anything else until its done… Then when it is done, post up info, then people say it can't be done… You can say "Oh really? Take a look…"
It is done. The long block has been built for months. I'll post pictures after the thing runs and I know it wont destroy the block at the power levels we will be making. Id hate to post pictures of a static engine, and then everyone goes out and cracks blocks because they got running before I did. They are more then welcome to do it though.
Physically IT CAN be done though.
badboyz31: (2009-09-26 18:53:26)
sweet I cant wait......I actually pay attention to what you post because it really has came in handy so far with my build
VG36ET: (2009-10-21 20:27:33)
Patiently waiting to c a 3.8L+ Naturally Aspirated(reliable) VG in ANY vehicle!
F/A 300: (2009-11-06 06:05:03)
Hey guys. Finally back to my Z I got a 2000 s10 so the Z is now my fixer up car.
I've read this whole post and I've wanted to put a vg33 in my car for awhile but now I really want to. I like the boring out to 97.5 mm. Though I don't think I would do the stroker because I want to run higher boost levels. I start at Wyo-tech march 28th maybe I can use their equipment to do some work.
Are you running the stock crank in your car Zfast I don't remember. If so are you worried about it breaking?
Careless: (2009-11-06 06:30:39)
if you're building it up. source your flywheel, clutch, crank, and aftermarket rods from a Z32 300zx, and get pistons custom made. that should get you started and with a heck of a lot of iron to strengthen that blocks bones and improve it's motor skills!
F/A 300: (2009-11-06 07:29:28)
Either I'm really tired or that last part is very very funny! Are the rods and crank from a z32 stronger than the z31 ones? Is the lobes on the crank the same as the z31 also? Sorry about questions just want to make sure I get the parts that work best.
ZFast88Z: (2009-11-07 00:20:07)
I am using the stock Z31 VG30ET crank. Will I break it? There is a possibility. Will you break it? More then likely not.
badboyz31: (2009-11-07 02:31:01)
yea this is what i'm wanting to know now, cause I need to buy a crank, but i dont know whether to go with the z32 or z31 crank or not.
ZFast88Z: (2009-11-07 15:08:09)
Ask yourself:
Self, am I going to make a 1000 horsepower?
Answers:
Self, Im not going to make 1000 horsepower so any VG crank will be just fine
Self, I am going to make 1000 horsepower. The VG will have to be just fine, because self, I am not paying 4500 for a billet steel crank.
Self, I am going to make 1000 horsepower, and I am a baller. I will buy a new billet crankshaft.
badboyz31: (2009-11-07 17:45:12)
hahaha thanks, well cause I have found both cranks, I found multiple z31 cranks, but I also found a z32TT crank, and just trying to decide which would be the best to go with. Cause some say the z32 crank is better and some say the z31 crank is better, so basically I really want to know which is better.
SATAN: (2009-11-08 21:00:56)
[quote]badboyz31 wrote:
Ask yourself:
Self, am I going to make a 1000 horsepower?
Answers:
Self, Im not going to make 1000 horsepower so any VG crank will be just fine
Self, I am going to make 1000 horsepower. The VG will have to be just fine, because self, I am not paying 4500 for a billet steel crank.
Self, I am going to make 1000 horsepower, and I am a baller. I will buy a new billet crankshaft.
hahaha thanks, well cause I have found both cranks, I found multiple z31 cranks, but I also found a z32TT crank, and just trying to decide which would be the best to go with. Cause some say the z32 crank is better and some say the z31 crank is better, so basically I really want to know which is better.
Well, we all know for a fact that the z32 crank will hold 1000+whp. What do we know for a fact that the z31 crank will hold?
badboyz31: (2009-11-08 21:21:22)
about a 1000hp, I guess it really does not matter which I go with
F/A 300: (2009-11-09 17:20:17)
I didn't know that the z32 crank or the z31 crank would hold that! Wow I don't plan to make near that much. I want to keep it street able. lol maybe 600 whp sounds good to me. I'll be happy if I hit 500. Can't wait to find the vg33 now. To bad the girl just spent a lot of my money on a puppy.
TurboDreams: (2009-11-09 20:11:31)
Z32 crank is better, I don't know if the NA crank is the same as the turbo though so make sure it comes from a turbo (unless someone else can verify that they use the same crank).
ZFast88Z: (2009-11-09 23:39:07)
And you heard this from where?
michaelp: (2009-11-10 17:20:42)
[quote]ZFast88Z wrote:
Z32 crank is better, I don't know if the NA crank is the same as the turbo though so make sure it comes from a turbo (unless someone else can verify that they use the same crank).
And you heard this from where?
His turbo dreams with his maxima.
TurboDreams: (2009-11-10 17:57:28)
I don't remember but I googled it and behold
http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_Th…0/article.html
"The crankshaft was also made from micro-alloyed steel, strengthened at the webs. The VG30DETT crank is 10 per cent stiffer than that fitted to the VG30DE. "
ZFast88Z: (2009-11-11 01:11:07)
Stiff does not always mean stronger with crankshafts. To stiff and the crankshaft cracks at the first sign of excessive cylinder pressures.
BTW, the Z31 crankshaft has a thicker case hardening then the Z32.
zachary.ard: (2009-11-14 14:07:45)
I'm going to stick with the 30ET crank as well for my VG33+ build. Seems like the dollar to headache ratio is pretty low for it, as opposed to billet or hacking up a Z32 crank for what seems to be a marginal strength increase.
I'll stick to letting my dollar to headache ratio run wild for the other crap I have to get like pistons and rods.
shromy: (2009-11-14 15:20:28)
I still see no real reason for swaping in anything but a 3.0 crank. has anyone here ever seen a broken vg30e crank or even a rod for that matter that was truly caused by hp/tq? I have seen a couple from very overheated/poorly maintained blocks that flew apart, but none from power. I still say that using the 3.0 crank is the best way to do a 3.3 swap, it just makes everything so easy. careless did find out some interesting things but, is there value for it? some of the extra cash he spent wouldnt need to be done now since he explained how he did it, but with the 3.3 crank known to break from time to time then why use it. course i still remember danny and others that used to machine the 3.3 crank to fit the z accessories. things have come a long way since then.
SATAN: (2009-11-14 16:51:09)
Exactly… This is something I have always said. I have NEVER seen a z31 rod or a crank break from too much power. My buddy has a bend rod, but it is from the previous owner hydro locking the car.
Also, Zfast, I agree, stiff does not mean strong. It CAN mean strong, but it can also mean brittle. However, how did you learn about the case hardening thickness of the z31 crank? Is this for the A/B series as well or just the W series?
Careless: (2009-11-16 02:57:30)
nothing more than what some of us @Z31P already knew. Myself not included, that's why I posted it … it was new to me as it was to many members.
I found that mounting accessories isn't as hard as it really turns out to be with a lot of other car swaps. It's no different than most domestic or jap/euro swaps. The VG30ET is just a bitch to work on in most cases anyways. But I've come to know how to do things quickly now.
Some things you just have to work around. my crank cost money because i had no choice. The value in what I posted is simply there to illustrate that one can use what ever they have if all they have is a VG33 and a blown up VG30 to grab parts from.
If I had the chance to do it again for the first time, I sure as hell would use my VG30 crank… simply because it's out of the car now. And for no other reason. But If I were to do it again after modifying my brackets and parts, I would find another vg33 crank because It would line up with my modified accessories… Then again, it's only like one bracket I changed anyway…
so what I'm saying is I'd use any crank you have or the one that takes the least amount of money to bring back into your desired specifications.
I searched for VG33 Crank information and found some guy Mitch saying that using the 33 crank and grinding the snout to accept Z31 accessories is the best way. At that point I thought… WTH, I'm just gonna use my damn vg33 crank and stop worrying about it, and just deal with accessories when I get to that point… and I just mounted my new power steering pump this evening, so all I need is another slight modification and the belt will go on. No big deal.
It will drive up the cost because of the additional parts like belts and shit you gotta buy that arent standard. But if you need to get it running and moving… use what you have. It will work if you make it work.
Most of us will not put the crank through enough stress to break one that is in good lick anyway.
ZFast88Z: (2009-11-17 01:49:16)
Everyone who may consider following me in my exploits to build a 3.7L VG33 may want to put there plans on hold.
SATAN: (2009-11-17 01:52:09)
Uh, oh, what happened? :-D :-(
That doesn't sound like a headgasket now…
ZFast88Z: (2009-11-17 01:59:28)
[quote]SATAN wrote:
Everyone who may consider following me in my exploits to build a 3.7L VG33 may want to put there plans on hold.
Uh, oh, what happened? :-D :-(
That doesn't sound like a headgasket now…
I wont know til after I return to the shop after the Thanksgiving day weekend, but part of me is worried by the suddeness and rapid rise of ECT that there may potentially be a crack in one of the cylinder walls.
This is why I minimized how much of the information/pics were public before the engine made X amount of longevity. Will know more black friday.
badboyz31: (2009-11-17 02:57:34)
Damn you!!!! :-(
SATAN: (2009-11-17 03:31:36)
[quote]badboyz31 wrote:
Everyone who may consider following me in my exploits to build a 3.7L VG33 may want to put there plans on hold.
Damn you!!!! :-(
Don't run 22lbs boost from twin 35r's and you will probably be fine. :lol:
badboyz31: (2009-11-17 03:40:42)
[quote]SATAN wrote: [quote=badboyz31]
Everyone who may consider following me in my exploits to build a 3.7L VG33 may want to put there plans on hold.
Damn you!!!! :-(
Don't run 22lbs boost from twin 35r's and you will probably be fine. :lol:
hahaha what about twin holsets? :lol:
zachary.ard: (2009-11-17 04:01:22)
Needs moar block. :twisted:
Careless: (2009-11-17 04:41:39)
my fingers be crossed for yee, matey!
ZFast88Z: (2009-11-17 22:41:18)
Needs less bore?!?!
Wonder if dart will make a 1 off billet VG37 block for under 10K…LOL NOPE
FYI, one the first run at 22PSI we made 697 with a super conversative tune…So most people on a VG37 will be completely ok.
zachary.ard: (2009-11-18 01:55:19)
That would be some epic bling though. Wut wut!
Seriously though, I'm hoping it is a different issue than what we are speculating.
ZFast88Z: (2009-11-18 02:51:45)
Im having one of the guys tear the manifolds/turbos/intakes off the engine so when I get back alls I will have to do is pull the heads myself. I want to be able to see how the gaskets come off instead of just getting a description from someone else pulling it apart.
If the gaskets show obvious signs of damage, Ill do a quick visual of the block and slap it back together with new head gaskets. If theres no sign of damage to the headgaskets, Ill pull the engine, strip it to the block and check it for cracks.
Its also possible that we lifted one of the heads. I find this hard to believe though with the number of bolts per cylinder on the heads.
SATAN: (2009-11-18 04:24:17)
Well, are you still using bolts or are you using studs? My buddy lifted a head on a DSM he was tuning. He made over 1000whp on it, but then a violent explosion of coolant went everywhere, through the engine out the tail pipe, out of the engine bay and everything. I asked him about the studs. He told me that they were just regular ARP studs and that they were upping them to some special ARP studs (don't remember the real name).
Careless: (2009-11-18 04:30:06)
how large of a bore would one be able to run if they were using some ductile iron sleeves? or is it just a going to add strength and bring you back down to stock-ish bore level?
is it even possible/neccessary?
Rat1314: (2009-11-18 08:05:19)
Group buy, who's in? :nanan?re
ZFast88Z: (2009-11-19 00:27:57)
ARP Studs… Ive lifted a head before due to an injector failing, causing detonation and lifting the head. This was with ARP.
However, I didnt see any signs of detonation or any reason to believe there was. As I said we were tuning at 22PSI and were still conservative with the timing.
I will tear it apart weekend after thanksgiving. If its the block, its going to take a long time before it goes back together (source a block, bore, new rings, etc). If its the headgaskets, I can have a new one in 2 weeks. If it lifted the head for some reason, I dont even know what Im going to do with it. I will have to look and see if there is material/room to oversize the head studs.
StreetFighter: (2009-11-19 05:26:53)
ARP will make you some L19 head studs if you lifted the head. You'llpay out the nose for them though.
badboyz31: (2009-11-19 05:33:58)
guess thats better than out the ass
ZFast88Z: (2009-11-20 02:24:10)
Yep! I remember when I first started building performance cars, someone told me double the money for every one horsepower over 500....Fuck there were estimating on the low side…Getting to 500HP $2000, getting to 1000HP $40,000
F/A 300: (2009-11-21 15:35:36)
Please don't kill my dreams!!!! :? I just got my house with a very large two car garage and the Z is going in after thanksgiving.
And this is why I'm going for maybe 600HP!!!!!!!!
ZFast88Z: (2009-11-22 12:56:01)
We made almost 700 before we experienced a failure. So "maybe 600" is not entirely out of the question.
F/A 300: (2009-11-23 05:17:22)
I'll shoot for right around 600. If its a little less thats still cool.
aceman: (2009-11-23 05:43:35)
the good news is you dont even need half the money zfast has spent to get to 600 :nanan?re
F/A 300: (2009-11-23 16:27:04)
Yea that is why I am shooting for around there because that way I don't need to spend 40k on an engine and even more on the drive train. Which is a good question too what trans are you guys using. I'm guessing your using the the rear LSD from the 87-89.
zachary.ard: (2009-12-04 03:11:50)
Any word on the damage Z?
ZFast88Z: (2009-12-04 03:16:38)
At the moment it appears it was a failure of the headgasket. However to aid on the side of caution we have decided to tear the block apart, inspect the entire block for any sign of cracking, order new rings, bearings and head gasket, and reassemble.
We could probably reuse the rings/bearings that are in there as the engine has run less then 2 hours, but IMO once you crush a bearing, then release the torque, you never reuse that bearing. So we are doing things my way and getting new rings/bearings.
Hope to be back together in time to reach our set goal before December 30. (We are closing the shop for 2 weeks starting December 31. We all need our personal time ya know. Plus happy employees are hard working employees)
RedBeauty84ZX: (2009-12-04 06:19:27)
Looking forward to you getting it put back together and seeing some results [archived image: smile.png]
zachary.ard: (2010-03-07 23:26:26)
Hey ZFast, what was the final determination on the issues you were having? Block failure or HG?
ZFast88Z: (2010-03-08 01:20:26)
The headgasket failed causing the overheating issue. However to be on the safe side we pulled the block apart and checked it for cracks. Two were found so the block was scrapped. The cracks were around the main bearing saddles.
zachary.ard: (2010-03-08 05:25:04)
Thanks for the info. I am still interesting in punching out the block, and just wanted to make sure y'all didnt have a wall failure.
Grr: (2010-03-08 17:45:49)
[quote]raracing1 wrote: [quote=ZFast88Z]
HI I do not have all the time of the world but why do you just start with a vg33 long block it`s heaven!
That's exactly what I started with. I then bored it out to 97.5mm making for a VG37ETT.
VG33 is all ready on the boring edge of the main cap support I deffinitively don`t recomend to go further than .020 or let your crank go away! I mean it
.
so i take it raracing was correct?
ZFast88Z: (2010-03-08 22:03:56)
Grr,
That is one possible explanation yes. We will see what happens with this new block. If the same results occur, then I would agree that it is due to the decrease in block strength due to removing to much material.
I believe there are ways it could be fixed, but I dont think any one them is a decent or viable option. Ive thought about machining a billet replacement crank girdle, but at the time when the idea was discussed over dinner, it didnt seem like we were going to have these issues.
260DET: (2010-03-08 23:16:30)
With the Z32 block somewhere around 500 WHP seems to be the limit if reasonable durability is required, the crank starts walking around then even with ARP studs. As most of you would know Nismo made a replacement crank girdle for the Z32 and the Electramotive single cam VG's had something similar. But then you are getting into dry sump territory it seems to me, a stock sump pan could not be used over a full girdle.
Basically the VG's block skirt is not deep enough to allow the bolting on of a simple flat plate brace over the top of the stock girdle.
260DET: (2010-03-10 00:43:10)
Thinking about this a bit more, perhaps it may be possible to keep the stock girdle and make up some tabs that would go from the main bearing cap area across the block webs towards the sump pan sealing area. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that the weakness lies in having only two studs per main bearing, the load on the block from those studs could to be spread to more studs drilled and tapped into the machined part of main bearing support webs.
Of course it would be better to have a conventional type single main bearing support plate or a complete new girdle but something like that above may be sufficient. I'm not planning on doing it, interesting though.
gun_hawk: (2010-12-10 13:59:23)
Nice topic .. What is the status on this project .
I think someone should write a simple how to guide including all the necessary parts to complete same....ie. VG33 bore to VG37.
ZFast88Z: (2010-12-10 17:50:34)
If you need that kind of write up, don't even try it.
VGFelice: (2011-03-14 12:00:47)
Hey guys,
Read through this topic, was there an outcome with the engine? Did it get put back together for another Dyno pull using the 3.8L block? If so how did it go, is it still running?
Looking at boring a vg33 block just wanted to know what would be the max I could go. Want to run high boost with supporting mods, setting car up for sports compact Drag racing along with the occasional street use.
Any info would be appreciated.
Cheers Peoples, great site! :-D
SATAN: (2011-03-14 13:11:20)
The topic is still controversial. It was said it could be bored out to a 3.8 liter but then cracked OVER 700whp. I have not seen this engine though and neither has anyone else. RAracing1 in Puerto Rico says that you cannot bore out a VG33E more than making it a 3.4 liter due to the crank webbing on the bottom side of the block getting too thin and cracking. This is supposedly where it cracked on Zfast's block.
Again supposedly, the crank webbing on the bottom side of the VG30E and VG33E blocks is actually thinner than the later VG30DE blocks. This MAY be why you see VG30DE's in the 1000+ hp range all the time but you never see VG30E or VG33E engines in that range. Or maybe it is just because people want better flowing heads.
Basically, nobody knows for sure until you get out there and do it.
ZFast88Z: (2011-03-14 13:25:24)
Has accepted this as truth. :-(
The twin GT35R's will get slapped on a VG34 once work slows down for me and I have time to build the engine.
Chrisw_2003: (2011-03-15 07:26:30)
[quote]ZFast88Z wrote:
RAracing1 in Puerto Rico says that you cannot bore out a VG33E more than making it a 3.4 liter due to the crank webbing on the bottom side of the block getting too thin and cracking. This is supposedly where it cracked on Zfast's block.
Has accepted this as truth. :-(
The twin GT35R's will get slapped on a VG34 once work slows down for me and I have time to build the engine.
well since its no longer a above top secret build, lets see the "3.8"l block
VGFelice: (2011-03-15 07:47:18)
No Worries guys thanks heaps for the replies, really appreciate the info.
Do you know if RARacing1's Z31 is bored out to a 3.4? Or Is that impressive power figure carried out on a 3.3.
What about yours Satan, have you started with a 3L or a 3.3L?
Sorry for all the questions guys, no one down here in Australia really touches these engines as you know the RB30 takes preference.
Rat1314: (2011-03-15 09:34:36)
[quote]Chrisw_2003 wrote: [quote=ZFast88Z]
RAracing1 in Puerto Rico says that you cannot bore out a VG33E more than making it a 3.4 liter due to the crank webbing on the bottom side of the block getting too thin and cracking. This is supposedly where it cracked on Zfast's block.
Has accepted this as truth. :-(
The twin GT35R's will get slapped on a VG34 once work slows down for me and I have time to build the engine.
well since its no longer a above top secret build, lets see the "3.8"l block
I was going to ask the same thing
SATAN: (2011-03-15 14:03:35)
Rafy (RARacing1) made 737whp on a dynojet using the 3.3 liter block. Dyno jets are known to read high though, so more likely around 650whp on other dyno's.
I made just over or right at 600whp on the VG30E with 22lbs of boost. Was going to run 30psi that same day, but the VG30/33E engines have crap ass oil pumps and I a spun a rod bearing that day. SO…
I am building both a VG34E and then a VG30E as a back up.
michaelp: (2011-03-15 14:08:36)
[quote]SATAN wrote:
No Worries guys thanks heaps for the replies, really appreciate the info.
Do you know if RARacing1's Z31 is bored out to a 3.4? Or Is that impressive power figure carried out on a 3.3.
What about yours Satan, have you started with a 3L or a 3.3L?
Sorry for all the questions guys, no one down here in Australia really touches these engines as you know the RB30 takes preference.
Rafy (RARacing1) made 737whp on a dynojet using the 3.3 liter block. Dyno jets are known to read high though, so more likely around 650whp on other dyno's.
I made just over or right at 600whp on the VG30E with 22lbs of boost. Was going to run 30psi that same day, but the VG30/33E engines have crap ass oil pumps and I a spun a rod bearing that day. SO…
I am building both a VG34E and then a VG30E as a back up.
737whp on the stock VG33 crank?
SATAN: (2011-03-15 14:32:09)
[quote]michaelp wrote: [quote=SATAN]
No Worries guys thanks heaps for the replies, really appreciate the info.
Do you know if RARacing1's Z31 is bored out to a 3.4? Or Is that impressive power figure carried out on a 3.3.
What about yours Satan, have you started with a 3L or a 3.3L?
Sorry for all the questions guys, no one down here in Australia really touches these engines as you know the RB30 takes preference.
Rafy (RARacing1) made 737whp on a dynojet using the 3.3 liter block. Dyno jets are known to read high though, so more likely around 650whp on other dyno's.
I made just over or right at 600whp on the VG30E with 22lbs of boost. Was going to run 30psi that same day, but the VG30/33E engines have crap ass oil pumps and I a spun a rod bearing that day. SO…
I am building both a VG34E and then a VG30E as a back up.
737whp on the stock VG33 crank?
I cannot answer that question. I can tell you that it was an OEM 6 bolt crank though. Whether it was out of a VG30E or a VG33E I do not know. I am willing to place money that it was the VG33E crank though.
If you care that much, I can text him and ask him?
michaelp: (2011-03-15 17:51:49)
Please, because there are theories/rumors that the VG33 crank isnt as strong as the VG30 crank, and I've been curious of the power the VG33 crank will hold.
Chrisw_2003: (2011-03-15 19:01:56)
[quote]michaelp wrote:
If you care that much, I can text him and ask him?
Please, because there are theories/rumors that the VG33 crank isnt as strong as the VG30 crank, and I've been curious of the power the VG33 crank will hold.
I remember the rumors that you couldn't do na2t a few years ago either, so its probably just that. a rumor
SATAN: (2011-03-15 21:30:13)
[quote]michaelp wrote:
If you care that much, I can text him and ask him?
Please, because there are theories/rumors that the VG33 crank isnt as strong as the VG30 crank, and I've been curious of the power the VG33 crank will hold.
I just asked him, "Is your crank a VG33E crank, or did you use the VG30E crank"
His reply, "33".
It doesn't surprise me because almost everything on that engine is VG33. Even the brackets for the A/C are VG33 that way the compressor would sit lower for IC pipes.
Rat1314: (2011-03-16 08:49:21)
[quote]SATAN wrote: [quote=michaelp]
If you care that much, I can text him and ask him?
Please, because there are theories/rumors that the VG33 crank isnt as strong as the VG30 crank, and I've been curious of the power the VG33 crank will hold.
I just asked him, "Is your crank a VG33E crank, or did you use the VG33E crank"
His reply, "33".
It doesn't surprise me because almost everything on that engine is VG33. Even the brackets for the A/C are VG33 that way the compressor would sit lower for IC pipes.
I'm guessing you asked 30 and 33.
That is good news though if the VG33 crank can hold that kind of power though, would make things a bit easier when doing a 33 swap.
SATAN: (2011-03-16 23:42:35)
Yes, sorry that was a mistake with my typing. Either way, he is using a VG33E crank in his engine.
VGFelice: (2011-03-17 07:48:44)
Thanks for chasing all that up Satan has cleared up quite a few things for me.
Cheers :-)