Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums cosmetic-interior-exterior/tbo lip mod. awkward height option, lip lower then rest option
Imported from Z31Performance.com Forums{{#if:stprasinz| — original post by stprasinz}}{{#if:2013-02-03 13:59:04|, posted 2013-02-03 13:59:04}}{{#if:61| · 61 post{{#ifeq:61|1||s}}}}{{#if:/Z31performance_archive/forum/z31-performance-upgrade-forums/cosmetic-interior-exterior/20582-tbo-lip-mod-awkward-height-option-lip-lower-then-rest-option.html|
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stprasinz: (2013-02-03 13:59:04)
Ok, I have a gary molitor tbo lip. I noticed SO many of the tbo lips setting lower than the rest of the car.... So I set out to raise the tbo lip to attempt to offset this. I have the whole lip raised approx 1" over where the lip meets the other lip. This is going to decrease the size of my radiator opening, and also require me to redo my liquid intercooler heat exchanger setup as a result (I modified the factory front bumper to allow the heat exchanger to be directly against the front bumper, as in removed all the inward lip to allow this).
I'm wondering if anyone has done anything like this in the past?
gardner86zx: (2013-02-03 14:04:29)
post some pics
stprasinz: (2013-02-03 14:24:00)
No mounted pics yet. Too cold to drive my car to do the work......
Ven: (2013-02-03 17:03:52)
But why? It's not like it sits that much lower than the rest of the car. It is an air dam after all.
[archived image: tbo_lip.jpg]
[archived image: profile1.jpg]
You should paint your stock sideskirts body colored so it makes the rest of the car seem lower to match the painted lip.
adamvann3: (2013-02-03 19:14:39)
You should have went with an SS lip. Not trying to be a dick about the comment but that is the difference between the two.
I agree with you though, the car needs lower skirts to better tie in the TBO.
stprasinz: (2013-02-03 20:53:58)
Well, I like the idea of larger area (both limit air under car, and the resulting smaller radiato inlet). I was going to go with the ss lip, But picked this up in the where are the lips going to come from shortage, before the z store picked them up. I also got a decent price on it, and itsa gary original. Car is also a not show car, if it don't function chuck it setup. Which is exactly why I grabbed this. Also ss wouldn't choke the radiator inlet like this one will (using that to my advantage). The only time I get into the pedal is at speed, in town cruising is slow(due in part to 4" straight pipe). This is also a route I though of doing a long time ago, but never put it into action.... But either way, this is where I am at. Just showing what I decided to do since I always thought the tbo lip looked funky low, and also all aspects of the function are planned into the setup, so as is the case for me 99.9% of the time function over form!
Careless: (2013-02-03 21:52:08)
so the SS lip is the same as the TBO lip, but the SS lip doesn't hang lower than the sides skirts?
I always thought the TBO lip was a little weird lookin'
stprasinz: (2013-02-03 22:45:15)
As far as I know, yes. Aside from the lower "brow?" being wider, making it lower.
Ven: (2013-02-04 07:01:45)
This. No need to butcher a good tbo lip. You probably can trade someone's SS lip for that.
Also, the black Z I posted above has stock sideskirts and I still don't get what everyone's talking about that looks "funky"
Ven: (2013-02-04 07:03:06)
http://www.garymolitor.com/300zx/ss_…spoilerref.htm
stprasinz: (2013-02-04 10:48:27)
I'm not butchering the lip at all. I am utilizing the functionality of the lip to its fullest, more so than most. If you don't comprehend what, how, and why I am doin this then you just don't know. I can only explain something so many ways before you either don't want to or can't understand what, how, or why.
stprasinz: (2013-02-04 10:58:57)
Hey ven, is your tbo mounted on the lip edge of the original body? Normaly they line up from top of tbo to tob of skirts. If its mounted higher, thats what I am talking about doing myself. I can't tell from the pictures to be positive. Also I am working on finding the materials for a splitter to help even more
Ven: (2013-02-04 11:40:28)
The tbo lip is mounted normally on that black car. As for "comprehension" it was to my understanding that an "air dam" works best when lower to the ground. What you're saying to do is raise said air damn 1" higher. Yes you're making the radiator inlet smaller which will decrease drag in that area but then you're allowing more air under the car. You also said you'd add a splitter later on, but the splitter if mounted to your setup would be 1" higher than normal. Unless however you're going to make an extension downward of the lip to the splitter to bring the splitter closer to the ground.
So if we're talking science and function over form, please explain how your setup of a raised lip is better than one lower to the ground like depicted below.
stprasinz: (2013-02-04 18:13:35)
Car scrapes in the front already, will be lower than a factory (or even lowering springs on most cars) height car with the tbo lip installed. My car had been lowered to the point at one time that if I had the tbo on it, it would be less than 1" off the ground, that didn't last too long, well less than one summer. This car is being driven on the streets, not track only. The splitter will be done before summer, so its not exactly a added on later. I am making modifications to a modification to make it better suit my needs.
And I'll say it again, I am utilizing the functionality of the lip to its fullest, more so than most. If you don't comprehend what, how, and why I am doin this then you just don't know. I can only explain something so many ways before you either don't want to or can't understand what, how, or why.
I can explain till I'm blue in the face, and someone will tell me what I should have done, but this is what I am doing. Instead of implying I am doing something wrong, ask, I'll tell you why I did.
Ven: (2013-02-05 01:52:00)
The high horse is good and all but down here on the ground, you didn't explain as you claim. I said what advantages will this provide over the lip close to the ground. You used the word "advantage" so you were asked to explain it, not to mention expressing great importance of function over form. On top of that saying you use it (the lip) to the fullest moreso than others.
What I gathered is you think the lip looks weird and want to raise it up some, especially since you drive around on the street. Which is fine since it's your car. It's all the function/form, advantage, utilization over others, that was questioned.
I expect the next response will be something along the lines of not wanting to explain because no one will understand. No matter, the cup of care has diminished.
stprasinz: (2013-02-05 18:32:58)
Just seems like every comment has been an attack. What else do you want explained. My car is lowered, and lowering the front even only the 2" the lip will from where is will make it even more of a trouble than it was (the car is lowered more than most that are street driven), resulting on the lip sitting closer to the ground than it does in most cases. Also shriking the frontal radiator opening reducing drag most people don't utilize it for that. So, lip is closer to the ground, and radiator inlet is smaller, than on most cars. So effectively utilizing the lip for more than most. I wasn't saying I am better because of this, I was merely saying this is the means I am using to accomplish this effect.
Sorry for not explaining clearer. I try and check peoples setups when I get intrigued by things they post, before I do anything that might sound like an attack, if it wasn't sorry for taking it that way. It just seems most people would rather say what you do wrong instead of seeing there side. Most people don't setout to do something stupid, constructive criticism would be much better ways of approaching things.
Ok, any questions about what why how, or for what reason I am doing something I love conversations about this stuff. Anything car related, and again I apologies for sounding like I was attacking, I thought I was being attacked.
ps, It also does look wierd, which was the primary reason for it, but also since my car is low, I don't want to shred the lip first bump
jesus94p: (2013-02-06 18:49:44)
learn to drive and you won't break it. tbo in stock location looks the best imo.
Switchback Motions: (2013-02-06 19:08:31)
There are a fair number of slammed Z31s around with lips properly mounted and no issues. Like jesus94p said, it's all about how you drive.
And remember, while you're reducing drag by making the rad opening smaller, you're also reducing air to the rad and intake filter.
NissanXRMA: (2013-02-06 19:08:41)
God damn that single wrapped headlight cover and gas cap cover are hideous. Worse than the stickers. ahaha.
G-E: (2013-02-06 20:27:51)
You make it sound like you're the only one riding low on coilovers with aftermarket lips… and then wonder why people sound antagonized
jesus94p: (2013-02-06 20:51:49)
hey hey there, stay on topic [archived image: tongue.png]
But yeah, its all on how you drive. My lip sits like 1"- 1 1/2" from the ground and I don't scrape it that much.
Guest: (2013-02-06 21:00:10)
The front of my stock height focus is trashed from scraping driveways and speed bumps. And I crawl into them and angle the car and such.
Ven: (2013-02-07 02:05:49)
And This
Also I figured anyone serious about reducing "drag" on a track day in the radiator opening area would use racing tape (like used in professional racing) which would give them the same effect. Then remove it after said track day session so they could have max cooling, but maybe that's just me… [archived image: confused.png]
stprasinz: (2013-02-08 01:29:51)
Good way to create constructive critisism. I gave my reasons, and I still get shit. sweet deals lol. I'm glad we got such a supportive bunch lol… Appearantly I don't know what I am talking about, or doing. Someone donate there ever loving infinite knowledge of what why and how I have and want to acheive lol…
Mutant-Z: (2013-03-31 19:36:00)
Just do you stprasinz! No matter what you do someone will have a problem with it. The net brings out the F@G in a lot of peopleand they say things online they wouldnt say face to face.
Richard_85ZXT: (2013-03-31 20:51:41)
Virtually every modification has a trade off, take what's being said as the other side of the coin and weigh it out. Lowering is a prime example. Lowering srings while they lower your center of gravity they also throw off your roll center so by itself could seem counterproductive, however most lowering springs have stiffer rates aswell. So from a performance standpoint lowering springs are better but not for daily driving. Same for this, yes you may reduce drag, but you also reduce cooling effectiveness. And while being higher less chance of damage lesseffectiveness as an airdam. So you need to weigh things out based on use and go from there. I would personally start with the tape before even mounting the TBO just to see how the reduction in airflow affects things before going too far. There is a reason for R&D. I got the SS lip for exactly the height reason, TBO I doubt will be pothole and frostheave friendly. But every driver and location is different, which is why everything is adjustable on race cars based on driver and track.
-Strike-: (2013-03-31 21:29:22)
Mine is a Gary original too, I have had no issues with it mounted in the stock location. Car has not been lowered though. I do make sure I am careful going up against parking lot curb stop things though, just in case.
I could see maybe some issues with a lowered car, just depends on how low, and you'll have to obviously understand the risk. My car does sit up a little higher in the front due to nothing in the engine bay, And in these shots, the suspension isn't settled. but it doesn't look bad.
Personally, I don't really see the need to raise it any higher, it has quite a decent clearance, unless you're slamming it to the ground as I said above.
[archived image: TBOLip5.jpg]
[archived image: Spacers9.jpg]
Ven: (2013-03-31 23:41:30)
Stop attacking him man!!!! lol
Careless: (2013-03-31 23:57:09)
do you have a pic of how the radiator is mounted behind the bumper.
a good one, not a shitty pic.
Richard_85ZXT: (2013-04-01 00:38:27)
Lol, nice Ven, I basically said what you said I know. Although this does bring up a good point. Does anyone know how effective the SS and TBO is in the first place? Obviously it prevents air from getting under the car creating less floatalthough 95% of the time it's just cosmetic for that aspect. We rarely get to speed to make it effective. But does either the SS or TBO channel air in anyway or at any speed to increase stability? Or does it become counterproductive in that regard? Comparitive to rear spoilerswhich are often visual enhancement only and actually create drag with no downforce, like most all midsized sedans. I would think the SS to have minimal stabilization from channeling air with the countours of it, and more though still no downforce with the TBO because of the lip at the bottom edge. Aerodynamics is kind of a black art to me, general principals I get but there is some more in depth that I get but unsure of anyway to test results.
Ven: (2013-04-01 20:51:01)
All that's known about the Z31 aerodynamics is that turbos (or Z31s w/ spoiler) had a coefficient of .30 while non spoiler cars were .31
I figured any effect of a TBO or even an SS would be slight. One would have to assume that the TBO lip would produce a smidge better results than an SS since it sits lower and has the protruding lip (and it being more pointed).
[archived image: 88ss-1.jpg] [archived image: tbo-org-1.jpg]
These cars already produce enough downforce for high speed cruising.
Twisted`Z: (2013-04-02 10:49:57)
IDK isn't having the lip so low helping with aerodynamics? Only really read through the first page.
Even the kaminari lip on my slicktop hangs down lower than the rest of the car by a smidge. Don't really have a problem with it.
Example: (Sorry crappy pic)
Careless: (2013-04-02 10:59:15)
y'all jiggas talkin' bout aerodynamics like you'ze going fast enough for it to make a difference.
come on guys. it's more aesthetic than anything- which is the concern here- aside from exposed radiator area.
inqui-Z-tor: (2013-04-02 11:47:31)
There .. Finally someone said it!
michaelp: (2013-04-02 15:44:20)
It actually works the other way, non-spoiler cars have a COD of .30 while spoiler cars have a COD of .31…they create more drag, but produce more downforce…
Ven: (2013-04-02 19:07:18)
Not in every case though. As with the 350Z, the base had .30 drag co but get the sport package which added front and rear spoilers, it dropped down to .29
This discussion actually came up a few years back. Someone mentioned their 85 Turbo brochure from Nissan stated .30
NissanXRMA: (2013-04-02 20:36:37)
Cool, but downforce is a product of drag.
Richard_85ZXT: (2013-04-02 20:48:52)
Like I said 95% of the time it won't be enought to matter but putting a wall up may not help. Lower reduces wind uner the car, but may be just a wall for that and no downforce or aero principals at all. For a positive effect to be noticable you'll need some speed but it doesn't take much for a negative result to be achieved. I mean rolling down your windows at 60 impacts in a negative way. So more curious if the additional drag created for blocking air also does any channelling or directing of air to prevent decrease in MPG or limiting speed since essentially the wind is hitting a wall. Don't get me wrong I bought my lip for cosmetic reasons and I know I won't need aerodynamics but since it's all about aerodynamics on this thread figured it'd be worth considering.
Ven: (2013-04-02 22:57:55)
From MotorTrend's 1998 Supersonic Shootout article.
Side note: The Z was the 4th fastest in the test, only falling to the Ferrari Testarossa, Porsche 928 S4, & the Corvette.
G-E: (2013-04-11 07:30:36)
Actually mikep the aerodynamic advantage of the spoiler at the back is to shear the air so as to create a smoother vortex behind the car, it ALSO helps with downforce by breaking the tendency of rounded cars to create lift, but it isn't designed to create downforce as the old 911 whale-tail was
The front lip is also to help downforce on the front of the car by reducing the amount of dense air getting trapped underneath, the denser air normally pushes a car up under speed, so that ALSO helps aerodynamics by reducing the amount of dense air rubbing on our very uneven and very coarse underbellies
To take either one farther in effectiveness, the next step would be to create a smooth undertray to guide air out behind the wheels, from the engine undertray, perhaps sloping up towards the body by the middle of the rocker panel, but ideally all the way to the gas tank
Ven: (2013-04-24 01:04:03)
Figured since Jesus94P posted this in another thread I'd post it here. This is the lip utilized to the fullest.
Shazam!: (2013-04-27 01:10:10)
mine looks ok....so far.
Shazam!: (2013-04-27 01:11:03)
mine looks ok....so far.
1artworkz: (2013-04-27 23:04:28)
I always wanted to modify the TBO so it had the stock road clearance.
Just another one of those projects that has a big o'l 'roundtuit' stuck to it.
G-E: (2013-04-27 23:05:55)
I had that thought too, would look really good on lowered cars too
Ven: (2013-04-28 13:55:26)
I like the original/ current design of the TBO.
stprasinz: (2013-10-19 12:02:33)
thats exactly what I was saying to do! Because I worded it differently nobody else understood that. also my car is a highway runner. In mexico only of course....... every time I drive the car it would utilize the added down force. Also since it is regularly at a higher speed the airflow I don't think would be lessened to the radiator. But hey all in all everyone proved my stupid reasoning to be ignorant......
Ven: (2013-10-19 14:02:10)
[archived image: rage-angry-fist-arthur-meme-4l9gywqe21mc297d.webp]
stprasinz: (2013-10-19 23:08:25)
Because of the exceptional constructive criticism seen here a lot, see above statement, and all others by this dude shitting on my thread every post he has made, I don't get on here much.
Ven: (2013-10-20 14:36:55)
LOL - Come off the high horse there buddy. You stir up the thread 6 months later, not with an update/picture post, but just to say "Yeah, that's what I was saying".....
1artworkZ said he just wanted stock clearance. He didn't add all that other BS as you did talking about "utilizing the lip more than most" etc.
stprasinz: (2013-10-20 22:43:30)
Here I'll poop on your thread again.... lol, Thats how long its been since I've been on.. And considering that if I would have installed it on my red 300zx that would have been the case, since the lip would have been as close to the ground as most people install them only it would have effectively shrunk the radiator opening.. therefore round and round I go with a monkey, explaining till I'm blue in the face. ^I hope for your sake you are a pretty fellow, since your kinda slow.
Ven: (2013-10-21 00:27:35)
My thread? I believe this is your thread. Basically what we have here is someone who got called out on the BS and then went away crying. After everyone is done with the topic and move on, the same kid wants to bring attention back to himself all while not saying anything worthwhile. You're the kid who starts pouting more when the parents stop paying them any attention when they throw a fit.
Also, take note on what I did there with "your" and "you're". Then we can start talking about slow…
stprasinz: (2013-10-21 09:05:26)
wow, you're (or you are as I spent the extra time to write out.... ) I was imitating you when I said I'd poop on your thread, and look you already have again. And as for saying nothing worthwhile, I stated that I wanted to do the same thing as an artist (1artworkz), I kinda thought that would have given you the hint that it's not that stupid of an idea, but still, your too slow to see that. And now I'm pouting? Since the first post you put in MY thread you have bashed my idea. I decided not to put the lip on my red 300zx, and instead my 88. Stock ride height, and I still set the lip approx 3/4" higher than it was meant to be. I think it allows the lines to flow better. I feel to each his own opinion, but some people^ don't think innovation and own ideas are allowed, and must be frowned upon, or he never had a good idea of his own, so everyone always said they are stupid and ignorant ideas. P.S. where did I improperly use a contraction? lol....
stufferton: (2013-10-23 03:00:37)
Dude, you've been here since '09, you know how it goes if you aren't prepared to explain why you are doing something out of the ordinary. Ven asked some questions, your response came off very elitist sounding, thus effectively painting yourself as an asshat. No, nobody else has modified the lip in the manner in which you speak, because traditionally that reduces the effectiveness of the design, while also reducing the volume of air reaching your intercooler AND radiator. If you are moving fast enough to "fully utilize" the aerodynamic design of the lip (I assume since you make high speed runs 'in mexico"), then I really do not think you should be limiting cold air reaching your rad and IC.
If it's an aesthetics thing, come out and say that for starters instead of BSing all this other hullaballoo.
stprasinz: (2013-10-23 09:05:05)
Didn't think I sounded like an elitist prick, sounds more like I explained it, then people still called me stupid. And, yes I just reread the thing.... I did explain it I explained what why, and even showed pictures of how. How much more, or what do I need to explain? Also I have a heat exchanger up front (liquid intercooler) and an icebox. My heat exchanger merely reducer temps of h20 before it gets to the icebox, to help lower the water temp to slow down the ice melting....
stufferton: (2013-10-23 16:21:40)
Post number 11 you came off very condescending, and at which point yiu had not fully explained the why, other than that it looked funny mounted normally. That is the point I was referencing as you coming off as an elitist talking down to people, Ven in particular. To which he responded in kind with knowledge and an example explaining why he thought the way he did. It took you half the page to fully explain the why, and by that point egos were already under fire. I think the splitter idea is great, especially if you had decided to raise up the lip. Provided the car has been lowered enough, and you do something like this, I think it could work out really well for both function and saving the life of the lip. http://www.stewartleask.com/build/splitter-creation
Ven: (2013-10-23 21:10:34)
I'll just leave this here
Ven: (2013-10-23 21:14:32)
/thread lol
stprasinz: (2013-10-23 22:39:15)
I explained it in post 1, I then reworded it in post 6, then in post 11 I worded it a 3rd way, each time explaining the same thing with different words. ^^ I see there are added lips under the side skirts on the blue car. Also, that would be trashed driving any road around my area. And I saw vens italics as sarcasm in post 4. Post 5, I had already expressed that it would shrink the radiator opening, nullifying that ss being the desired effect. post 13 depicts that a lower front air dam as opposed to entire car would be better, which in turn isn't true, so not good reference. post 14 I then explain it better, and in 15 ven bashes again. anyway, I am done justifying this lol, it rediculous, I have been wrong since the beginning so, someone show me what I WANT TO DO, and HOW I SHOULD DO THIS..... lol way to give positive reinforcements, and helpful guidance.
stufferton: (2013-10-23 23:50:45)
Did you check out the link I gave? Leask made his splitter out of plywood so that its cheap, easy to work with, and can take a beating without worrying. Also super easy to cut out another, throw some quick paint on, bolt it up and keep driving while slammed and keeping your lip in good shape.
This is exactly what I plan on doing once my front end is back together. Previously my nose was almost as low as Jesus94p's in that picture. Same stance, just with 18's instead of…17's? Once everything is buttoned back up again the car will probably be lower than before, depends on how it handles with the new setup, but I can completely relate to the issues that arise with driving slammed.
stprasinz: (2013-10-24 08:57:02)
^ definitely a good idea! simple strong, easy to construct, and replace… Sweet find there!'