Forums/Z31P/z31-basics basic-modifications-basic-questions-aka-the-newbie-forum/Rear main bearing fitment issue, photos.
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Z_Karma: (2013-02-15 07:42:35)
Installing the new Sealed Power rear bearing is giving me some trouble.
The old one slipped easily off the block with a slight tap on the corner.
I cleaned the block surface with a 3M abrasive pad (scotchbrite type)
The new bearing was a really tight fit, it had to be seated into the cradle recess
with a plastic mallet. This caused the crank not to easily seat into the bearing and
it also had to be tapped into place. Since the bearing is a tight fit, it has expanded
and, that is taking up the clearance with the crank.
The crank rotates, but not as easily as it did with the old bearing in place. I imagine if
i have the same tight fit issue with the girdle bearing, it will make the crank even harder to turn.
I removed the new bearing (It had to be tapped out) and i can see where the crank
has already worn through a patch of the coating when it was fully seated into place.
The bearing slips onto the crank fine when it is loose, it doesn't bind up at all.
This doesn't seem normal to me. But then this is the first bearing replacement i have done in on a VG30.
Old bearing slips over block with no problem
New bearing fits over block, but only so far before some persuasion is needed.
Wear marks on new bearing
Front:
Back:
Bonus pic, old front bearing showing some wear:
Andrew84zx: (2013-02-15 09:49:44)
that is not normal, something is wrong with that bearing. get a new one
I have always used Clevite and have been able to push them in without the use of any tools.
NissanEgg: (2013-02-15 15:03:58)
Use Nissan bearings, no issues with them.
Agreed, there is an issue with that bearing. If used, it will cause lots'o problems.
Z_Karma: (2013-02-15 15:23:30)
Thanks for the help guys.
Everybody around here only carries Sealed Power brand. (Autozone, Oreilly, NAPA, Baxter, Knechts)
Rock auto carries Clevite but i wanted to button it up this weekend.
I'll call the local stealership parts dept and see what they're markup is. They gotta have a set in stock.
12208-02P00, bearing set is listed at 39.80 at Courtesy. If they're markup on a Dist cap is any indication,
Beaverton Nissan will want ~55 for the bearing set.
Z_Karma: (2013-02-15 17:25:43)
Heh, well i was close. 52.73 and no local dealers have them in stock, they'd have to come from a warehouse out of state.
The reason the dealers don't stock them according to him is that it's cheaper in parts to replace the whole short block
than to charge a customer labor to do bearings. Wow.
Shazbot.
liladair: (2013-02-15 21:42:08)
Orielleys will order clevite for you. they did for me, yes i had to wait a couple days but they got em for me as a rod and main set for like 60 bucks.. but i also have a commercial account and 50% off lol
EDIT: clevite is a branch of Mahle Group (who manufactures the rotating assemblies for F1 and Nascar)
Z_Karma: (2013-02-15 22:04:01)
Thanks for the info. I'll probably track down a discount code and get them from Rockauto.
NissanEgg: (2013-02-16 00:50:43)
Are you ordering by the proper size by the numbers on the block and crank?
Z_Karma: (2013-02-16 03:36:02)
No, i just ordered a "standard" Sealed Power set and not the individual bearings. However…
I was under the impression that if the block/crank hadn't been machined, that a standard set, rather than an optional undersized set
would work. Options of 0.25/0.50/0.75 mm undersized is what i can find. Even if the block had been line bored, the thickness of the
rear of the block, where the bearing is binding, would remain the same thickness correct?
Undersized bearings are only required when the crank has been machined correct?
When i ran into this problem, i started educating myself and found that the crank and block are indeed stamped.
The crank is stamped 111 (It's only stamped to 3 places)
The block is stamped 2222
According to the fiche/FSM charts, that translates into STD3
That works out to be
12207P front 12214-02P03
12207 center 12230-02P03
12207M rear 12261-02P03
That's fine if i wanted to order the individual bearings from Nissan (which i may have to do)
but, what if i wanted to order a bearing set (like the Clevite set that Andrew mentioned) from a parts store,
what does STD3 mean? How would that translate into aftermarket bearings. I can't find that information in the FSM or fiche.
nismopu: (2013-02-16 04:00:49)
I have a set of.clevites in the garage in the box still. I ordered them through my machine shop and I think they only cost le 40 bucks? If you're coming through this weekend hit me up.
Andrew84zx: (2013-02-16 20:40:35)
if you order aftermarket bearings they do not have the option of a grading system like oem does. you would only order different sized bearings if your main journals or rod journals are out of spec. look at the FSM and measure everything and make sure its within the tolerances that's stated.
Z_Karma: (2013-02-16 21:19:58)
Thanks for the great info. I've been reading up on the process where i can on the internets.
This is my first foray into a VG30 bottom end…giggity.
Me and a friend did his 20R in his HiLux pickup probably 20 years ago.
Andrew84zx: (2013-02-16 21:57:15)
i would be more than happy to help you out on this. if you have any questions with anything just PM me. but it looks like you have a good understanding of things so far
NissanEgg: (2013-02-17 02:32:41)
Also, remember that the front main is wider than mains #2 and #3 by about a mm or so. Be carefull where you stick the first 3 main bearings as they will all fit, but the wider will rub the roll fillet of the crank and make it hang up. I ran into this issue with an OEM Nissan bearing in the wrong box. Just something to be on the look out for.
Also, the OEM bearings will have different numbers on the actual bearing shell than the box. Don't know why, but they do.
Also, after what ever bearings you get, make sure you Plastigage the mains and rods to make sure you are within specs.
Careless: (2013-02-17 16:45:40)
A couple of things… Why are you sliding the bearing on? Why not press it down from the top? Of course the old bearing will slide on easier. It has been there since the Age of Aries.
2nd- pay attention to the fillet radius on the crank and the chamfered sides of the bearing journal. it could be that the bearing you have is machined so that one side has a more shallow tapered corner on the back side of the bearing.
I do recall having a similar issue. I believe I just turned the bearing 180* and installed that one on the top side/girdle, not the crank side- because of the locating tang. you can just turn it 180 and re-seat it, obvioulsy.
After pressing down on the crank to try and get it to seat fully without checking for obstructions… Which was a dumb idea as it scratched the side of the bearing, but I didn't have time/money/patience to buy another bearing set- I cleaned it up. checked the new bearing after cleaning with a very good vernier, compared the total thickness around the whole bearing. it was dead nuts same as both the a trashed vg30 block bearing and the old vg33 bearing that came out of the motors that i had apart. So my theory was that it didn't damage it at all, and it was just the flash coating that was removed. I would compare to another bearing before running out to buy a whole new set.
clean it up with some 0000 steel wool with very LIGHT brushing or a scotchbrite pad or whatever you can to make the coating uniform. This will allow you to recheck where it's making contact since you will have a clean bearing to use as a visual.
also, make extra sure that the 1st bearing pair is wider than the middle two.
lastly, the bearing clearance that is required by the FSM or by block numbering does not change the fitment of the bearings when being pressed in by hand. Infact, it is barely even noticeable when you spin the crank over by hand with oil on the crank pins. That does not mean it's the proper clearance, it just means that the clearance is so fine that spinning it over is SOMETIMES not a clear indicator of whether you have the right bearing installed. It can be VERY deceiving. The bearings all start out at the same size, and they're put into a jig that bores them clean much like a cylinder hone, to the correct size. So inner diameter fitment will change in this case… outer diameter- which is your issue here, will not. regardless of bearing grading.
Careless: (2013-02-17 16:59:54)
and for got sakes, use some vinyl hose from home depot for 50 cents a foot for your rod stud guidance when installing the crank. those packaging foam tubes you have are not going to protect a damn thing. they'll just move out of the way gracefully.
I'm trying not to be nitpicky here.. but you can never have a block that is spotless. you just do the best you can. and I can see by the amount of oil and goo and shmoo in your main web registers, you haven't done the best you can. That stuff DOES change your clearance ever so slightly. You gotta be sure that all level surfaces are level and CLEAN.
don't dick around on that detail.
Z_Karma: (2013-02-17 17:21:33)
I never dick around on the detail in those situations where i know exactly what i'm doing.
This just happens not to be one of those situations. But with y'alls knowledge, i'm confident
i wont fuck it up. Again, thanks for the help.
I opened it up with the mindset of "I'll just do this and this and this, button it up and i'm done.."
Yeah…right. I should open a worm farm in the garage with all the cans of 'em i have open.
Those foam sleeves are Nerf darts that my son unknowingly donated. I forgot to bring home some tubing from work.
Careless: (2013-02-17 17:44:34)
Well, regardless of what the situation is, you can spray brake clean in there if you don't want to clean the entire thing- and use a clean piece of paper to clean right in the edges there.
From now on, just think of it like this:
If it's flat or it's a machined surface. make sure it's clean because it was machined to have something placed against it, and that means there isn't supposed to be anything in between those two things.
knaw'mean?
To do a proper aftermarket bearing purchase/selection while referring to the numbers used in the nissan grading system, your bearings all need to ADD UP to the same number across the entire bearing package.
This involves math that you do not need to do with Nissan bearing shells since you can buy them individually per journal/crank pin. The reason for this is because you have to buy an entire bearing package that FALLS WITHIN the nissan range, and when you buy prepackaged sets, you cannot interchange the oversize amount per journal/crank pin. They are all oversized to the same ID in the aftermarket world…
if you have a crank that is 0000, and block that is 3333, you have two options:
A) buy a #3 set of nissan bearings
B) find the CLEARANCE DIFFERENCE in size from the Standard 0000/0000 set to the #3 set of nissan bearings, then find the OVERSIZE bearing kit from an aftermarket manufacturer that will put the bearings into the range that the #3 set calls for.
if you have a crank that is 1112, and block that is 2222, you have two options:
A) buy a #3, #3, #3, #4 set of nissan bearings for each respective main/crank pin.
B) find the largest clearance on the crank, and have the crank ground on all pins to match that of the largest clearance. Then buy an aftermarket kit that is even across the board, since your crank will be ground even now (and re-stamp your crank with indicators for yourself in the future). In this case, you'll have to have the crank re-nitrided as well.
So when people think that Nissan bearings are too expensive- well… you better know what you're lookin' at [archived image: smile.png]
Z_Karma: (2013-02-17 18:51:17)
The cost isn't too far from what i paid for the Sealed Power set. Purchasing the individual bearings (in my case they're all #3)
through Courtesy runs 43.54 +12.00 shipping, But they're out of stock too.
I'm kinda curious to know, what does a #3 bearing set translate into as far as a +/- offset in reference to a STD set.
I'm still going to borrow a set of calipers from work and do the measurements and plastigauge is also easy enough too.
I mean even Nissan sells a "set" 12208-02P00, US= 0.25 (I guess that would be a 0.25mm positive offset?)
Careless: (2013-02-18 02:02:41)
it should actually be 0.025mm undersized (smaller ID). I can't remember the range to be honest- I think its 0.025mm.
Z_Karma: (2013-02-19 22:11:07)
Well slap me with a FSM and call me nancy…
The bearing specs i was looking for are right on page EM-52.
[archived image: S9FRN.gif]
I hauled my crankshaft into work today so i can use our micrometer set, unfortunately
we don't have a inside micrometer set. I'll take home my mitutoyo digi calipers.
The Nissan grade 3 bearings are .0720-.0722.
Clevite Standard are .0720
This has been a learning experience, that's for sure.
Z_Karma: (2013-02-20 07:43:19)
To illustrate the main issue i was having with the aftermarket rear bearing:
This was done with some cheap Harbor Freight digi calipers (est. +/-0.0005 error) but after a few repeated measurements (ends and middle) it's pretty
obvious that the Sealed Power rear bearing inner dimension is too narrow.
Careless: (2013-02-20 07:57:11)
good find. i would take this picture to where you bought them, and ask for a refund. bring bearings and caliper.
regarding the FSM clearances… what did you come up with? is the standard bearing the one you need?
Z_Karma: (2013-02-20 08:08:39)
I measured the main & crankpin journals at work but forgot to bring my good calipers home.
The measurements were consistent, but i cant remember what they were now. I wrote them down though.
Careless: (2013-02-20 15:22:27)
FWIW, I used Infiniti J30 VG30DETT bearings for both the rod and mains in ACL Race Flavour.
If you'ze feelin' fancy, you can open an account online with Calico Coatings and Buy their CT-1 coated bearings in VG30DETT, and they send you a nice christmas card and you can get a nice black denim hat.
Z_Karma: (2013-02-21 19:47:39)
Nah, i have too many hats as it is.
My measurements indicate that a STD 0.0720 bearing (Grade2/3) would be within tolerance.
" Block Crank Δ Δ/2 Bearing std. Clearance Limit
Front 2.6265 2.4780 .1485 .07425 .0720 .0011 -.0022 .0035
Pos 1 2.6260 2.4780 .1480 .074 .0720 .0011 -.0022 .0035
Pos 2 2.6260 2.4770 .1490 .0745 .0720 .0011 -.0022 .0035
Rear 2.6260 2.4770 .1490 .0745 .0720 .0011 -.0022 .0035
The bearings i removed were ~.0710.
I ordered a set of ACL 4M2777 STD. They should be here next week thru Amazon.
Clevite MS-1951P are priced about the same on Ebay.
That's about right, most of my weekend projects take about 3 weeks. :-P
Z_Karma: (2013-02-28 00:52:45)
Just arrived in the mail…ahhh much better. Measured with a better set of calipers than in the previous measurement comparison image.
Maybe i can finally begin assembling things.
Careless: (2013-02-28 03:40:18)
ACL race is what i useded. i likes them. good jorb.
so it can go back together now?
Z_Karma: (2013-02-28 04:13:16)
Yeah, I can has engine.