Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums suspension-chassis-and-brakes/Powertrix oilover conversion needs.
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reddzx: (2013-09-10 22:46:59)
Well, I'm selling the 89T and will be spending some of the money on the Shiro. I've decided to install Powertrix coilovers as I got a discount on taking over the deposit from a member who had to back out due to selling his car. I never had plans for coils before, I really haven't pay much attention to how you guys were doing it and what additional parts I may need beyond the kit from Powertrix. They are doing the welding on the spindles as part of the buy, and it seems like I remember that they include front camber adjustment plates.
I ordered the (R/T) coilovers with 8k/6k springs, what else will I need? I am not a track or drift guy and will be doing the majority of my driving on the street and in the city with an occasional trip to the country/mountain roads. I would like to order what I need soon so I can do everything at one time.
Switchback Motions: (2013-09-10 22:48:47)
Just need the coilovers. Once the welding is done they'll bolt in.
88Turbozx: (2013-09-10 23:04:23)
Get some bumpsteer spacers from ASCO to compensate for being lower in the front. You may want to consider doing the rear camber mod and finding a way to get more rear toe adjustment too if you plan to go decently low. The front camber plates maxed out get me to around -3.4 in the front btw. I'd recommend running 4f 3r damping to start with.
reddzx: (2013-09-10 23:24:13)
ASCO is sold out of bump steer spacers. I already did the slotted trailing arm mount/cross member camber mod, what about rear camber plates?
G-E: (2013-09-10 23:27:20)
Hah the rear strut has no bearing on camber, so no camber plates there…
Switchback Motions: (2013-09-11 00:13:01)
You'll only need bumpsteer spacers if you lower significantly enough to need correction to control arm angle.
Greasedmonkey: (2013-09-11 02:40:16)
the bump steer spacers are all you would want. I still have not done the rear camber mod. I just did the coils and the spacers.
adamvann3: (2013-09-11 15:12:40)
Most people have touched upon the basics. Bump Steer Spacers are almost a must. The proper name is Roll Center Adjusters (RCA) and Stance sells these as well. This will correct some geometry issues with the front LCA. You would actually benefit from these with ST springs as well.
Rear camber mod, which is sounds like you have already done. Hopefully its enough, and the stock rear toe adjustment has enough to get you back withing specification at your desired ride height.
Wheels and tires. Tires play a huge roll in suspension setup. When going with coilovers it is recommended to use a 17" wheel with lower profile tires. Sidewall flex, lets say in your 225/50/16, will make the car feel bouncy. Now you can run higher PSI and set your dampers to the stiffer side to compensate, but this will create a harsher ride quality. This is the main reason people complain their coilovers are garbage and dont like them. They overlook one of the most important aspects of suspension and just want a lower ride height.
What people dont talk about. Front tension rods. The lower you go in the front, the stock front tension rods start to twist putting a lot of stress on themselves and the LCA. In the past people have stress cracked LCA tear the tension rod area. Kouki tension rods actually have an extra piece spot welded to this area (kouki tension rod will put more stress on the LCA than zenki ones). In my cars I weld a plate over a portion of the LCA to box them in for rigidity. After market adjustable tension rods come with a end link which allows the tension rod to rotate without putting additional stress on the LCA
I would say the top 3 would be the basics and the 4th is an FYI situation.
Being realistic I really don't think you are going to like them. Depending on ride height you will have to be very conscious about driveways with your front lip, and the ride is going to stiffer than what you are used too. If your back is not up to par, its going to feel the side effects. I would highly recommend keeping your ST setup complete so you are able to bolt it back in.
reddzx: (2013-09-11 15:24:21)
Thanks Adam, your honesty is appreciated. I am not going to slam it and I have already become driveway conscious just with the 89T on ST's.
What 17" wheel offset and tire size would you recommend?
I still have the SS springs also and may keep the ST/Bilstein combo just in case.
adamvann3: (2013-09-11 15:44:40)
What I meant was you want to run a minimum 17" wheel. 350z 18s will also work out nicely as well.
I keep preaching but most 17x9 mustang wheels really fit the bill on the z31. Be it Cobra R's, SCs, or FR500 they all look good. 245/45 or 255/40 tire works really well with this combination (and is not stretched). Most mustang wheels come +24 offset, you are going to need a spacer in the front to clear the coilover (if you have 1" spacers try them first). Rears will bolt up fine, but you may need a spacer depending on desired aesthetics. Run -2 to -2.5 degrees of camber up front, and you may need to bend over the 2 tabs that hold the fender liner in. I was able to just remove the screws and bend the tabs upward with a dead blow hammer + heat. This holds the liners in place with no issues and really easy to do.
jaqattack02: (2013-09-11 15:49:36)
I'm running full 88T suspension in the front of my 86, with ST springs and Bilsteins. I have a set of 03 Cobra wheels on mine (genuine Ford, not reps, if that makes a difference for offsets). They fit great with a 5mm spacer in front and 10mm in rear. I'm running a 235 width tire in the front, but have space for a bunch more. When it needs replacing I'll probably do a 245 or 255. Rear is a 275 and there's still plenty of space back there as well.
adamvann3: (2013-09-11 16:05:32)
Reps and genuine run the same offsets. You have to remember with stock front you just need to clear the front strut housing. With coilovers you now need to clear the spring perch + spring and need lower offset to do so. I love 235/40 tires on 17x9 wheels, but its a minor stretch (hardly noticeable) but I also know this is not Tim's style or preference. At 17x9+2 235/40 I was barely able to fit a pinky width between my tire and coilover perch. With coilovers you want your 9" wheel to be close to 0 offset, maybe towards the negative side depending on tire width.
reddzx: (2013-09-11 16:34:54)
Thanks, this is precisely the kind of Information I need.
300zxturboftw: (2013-09-11 20:01:52)
9.5s and 255s made me go with 15mm spacers at +22 offset.
reddzx: (2013-09-11 20:47:11)
front or back?
adamvann3: (2013-09-12 00:42:40)
He has 9 wide and that is the front.
frostvectron: (2013-09-12 17:09:30)
I was surprised of the lack of interest in discussing the damper settings.... which leads me to believe that most people with coilovers either know what they're doing already (but don't want to share) or are setting them incorrectly! [archived image: rolleyes.png]
adamvann3: (2013-09-12 17:46:19)
I would go with the later portion of that statement.
reddzx: (2013-09-12 17:52:05)
I'm not afraid to ask as my self worth is not tied up in knowing it all.
Expect more question after I get them on the car.
michaelp: (2013-09-12 17:54:09)
My car is quite low…I love the coilovers and how the car performs. Its about not being TOO low and trying to use it for "motorsports", and having damping set properly for your use…as well as the suspension setup as a whole. I see many people complain about getting coilovers then talking about removing their swaybars entirely to get the car more neutral. I did opposite, I added 1" solid sway bars and love the way the car performs. Weight-balancing, damper settings, and possibly trying different ride heights and spring rates to affect how the cars balance is (in terms of over steer, under steer or being neutral) is the best way…perhaps going with a small sway bar in the front than the rear etc - but I'd never remove a sway bar entirely.
Overall point is - Coilovers arent necessarily a bolt on and make my car handle f*cking amazing modification. It can take some tweaking with damper settings and different ride heights as well as properly balancing the weight to get it to perform how YOU want it…but thats the great thing about coilovers versus springs/shocks…everyone has a different opinion of what optimal handling is..its easier to tweak to what you want with coilovers and other adjustable suspension bits.
The relevancy of this to this thread? Who knows…but I felt like adding it in.
adamvann3: (2013-09-12 18:08:09)
This is very well put.
Everyone has a different opinion of what optimal handling is..its easier to tweak to what you want with coilovers and other adjustable suspension bits
Ven: (2013-09-21 12:32:08)
Adam, have you done the slotted rear mod? I noticed your Z doesn't have nearly as much camber as say JesusP's purple Z. I'd like my tires to last more than 4 months…
Parker: (2013-09-21 13:19:06)
Touge Factory sells the roll center adjusters too:
https://dev.z31library.com/extras_archive/www.tf-works.com/
I installed my Stance coilovers myself (spindles welded like yours will be) and I'd never done any suspension work before. Installation was simple; the only hitch I ran into was having to cut off and replace the passenger side rear lower shock mounting bolt. You shouldn't have any trouble at all with the installation.
frostvectron: (2013-09-22 04:54:07)
I keep finding the lower collar (the one that sets the height) on both fronts keep getting loose over time even when I am tightening it like a bear. Anyone else??
G-E: (2013-09-22 05:58:59)
Did you grease the threads when you assembled it?
Worst case you could use 2 dabs of red locktite, on opposite sides, just for the sleeve, then once set, tighten down the lock ring
88Turbozx: (2013-09-22 16:08:48)
I had that problem and one side in the front lowered itself 1in and drooped the spring 1/4in. I've been using a tiny amount of locktite and have been good for like 6k miles.
adamvann3: (2013-09-24 03:29:27)
My car has heavy rear camber modification. X member tabs were extended, then slotted with eccentric hardware to dial everything in. At my current ride height you are looking at -2.5 degrees (opposed to 5-7 you are seeing on aforementioned vehicle) and still able to fit 11 wide wheels.
My toe isnt where I want it to be but still ok on tires.
300zxturboftw: (2013-09-24 04:10:57)
Yes, thanks. They are 17x9 and 15 mil in the front. I may run my 10 mil bolt on spacers in the rear once serge rolls the fenders tomorrow on the car.
frostvectron: (2013-09-24 04:11:10)
I didn't. Should I have? D:
DeleriousZ: (2013-09-24 05:37:20)
Camber does not kill tires like toe kills tires. Dial the toe in and you can run a crapload of camber and still have tires last for a summer or two. Because of the stupid toe gain with the z31 when it's slammed, it EATS tires.
300zxturboftw: (2013-09-24 14:56:38)
My rears weren't TOO bad when on a stock tire set-up and slammed. But yes, it would be practical to do s13 rear conversion or cut and weld the tabs on the OEM z31 subframe to dial in toe.
DeleriousZ: (2013-09-24 15:06:37)
Yeah, best for stock subframe would be rod ends and adjustable length on the outer arms to re-center the wheel in the arch when dialing in toe.
michaelp: (2013-09-24 15:25:53)
I have -4.8deg of camber, non-adjustable…Toe is set max out and its .2" total toe in…but doesnt wear tires horribly.
300zxturboftw: (2013-09-24 16:40:25)
[archived image: 0526111636.jpg]
My next project will be fixing toe before I hit the racetrack and smash through $800 tires in 2 sessions.
adamvann3: (2013-09-24 17:29:37)
You should pick up a spare rear x-member and do similar to what I did, but make the new mounting points slightly farther out (0.30") on the outer most tabs. This will correct the toe and bring back some camber. You also need to add about -2 degrees more front camber. Will help performance wise and fender clearance.
300zxturboftw: (2013-09-24 17:37:39)
Yup more neg camber with this new set up
reddzx: (2013-10-01 19:03:49)
[archived image: 2013-10-01113548.jpg]
Charles@POWERTRIX: (2013-10-01 20:51:06)
Sealed Roller Bearing Upgrade
Compression of the springs creates a twisting motion however it is usually not enough to break the bottom green locking collar loose.
However with the McPherson style front suspension of the Z31 plus the torsion created by aggressive driving and steering could contribute to this.
We can offer an upgrade part that will definitely eliminate the possibility of the locking collar coming loose if tighten properly.
The Part: Sealed Roller Bearing Top Spring Seat:
More importantly this part will upgrade the suspension actuation and eliminate tension and resistance in the system caused by spring twist during compression making suspension actuation more consistent and fluid. Further, it will allow the complete coilover assembly (shock body, spring, lower mount) to rotate freely and without friction during regular steering maneuvers.
We'll work on special pricing for anyone interested.
michaelp: (2013-10-01 20:59:14)
I'm interested.
reddzx: (2013-10-01 21:37:58)
If this is an engineering problem with the one's I already bought, why should I have to pay extra to fix them?
How much extra?
Charles@POWERTRIX: (2013-10-01 22:04:22)
No, it is not an engineering problem. IT IS AN UPGRADE
No, it is not an engineering problem. It is absolutely not necessary nor required as we have offered like applications since 2002.
IT IS AN UPGRADE to the working of the suspension.
Most if not all other coilover production companies do not offer this at all for their like McPherson strut style applications.
And if they do, it is also an option not part of the regular assembly.
We are just offering an upgrade if you choose to improve the suspension actuation prowess.
It is an option to upgrade as we offer upgraded Swift Springs.
We are just pointing our that this may help for those that are more aggressive with the duty of their cars.
One thing that may help those that are breaking the collars loose would be to take some preload out of the springs.
The more preload, the more tension is created that can contribute to that issue.
A quality sealed roller bearing is not cheap. Regular Retail pricing for the set which include 2 sealed bearings and 2 metal thrust washers is $129.95
We are working on a 30% discount for members of the forum board who would be interceded in this upgrade.
reddzx: (2013-10-01 22:45:44)
Ah, OK Thanks. I'm not an aggressive driver so it may not be an issue for me.
michaelp: (2013-10-01 23:04:26)
I'm interested in them. I used some lock-tite on my lower sleeve lock to try to prevent this, which may be a bitch when/if I have to take it apart at some time…but it seems to have worked.
I need replacement lower bushings in the rear coilovers and a right front damper extension cable as it fell out of my ziptie (lol) and tore off during drifting.
G-E: (2013-10-01 23:06:37)
Just so everyone knows, you can get needle thrust bearings in 52mm I.D from mcmaster carr or other supplier with hardened top and bottom races for less than $50 all around, all you need is a finger of grease for each, and possibly wrap vinyl tape around the hat like a boot
This sealed version sounds like a good idea, and looks well made, if the cost ends up being reasonable, it's definitely worth getting for anyone who refuses to inspect/maintain their coilovers regularly
G-E: (2013-10-01 23:12:37)
Too funny, you scoffed when I drilled and tapped my spindle for a cable bracket to prevent this…
Cost me $40
reddzx: (2013-10-01 23:46:48)
how do I feed that damper extension cable through the slot in the lower tube?
G-E: (2013-10-01 23:50:29)
Use an allen key to remove the knob…
300zxturboftw: (2013-10-02 00:22:54)
A little loctite should hold the collar on there. A lot of people do it. $3 solution.
G-E: (2013-10-02 00:26:19)
The stock setup has a bearing at the top to allow free rotation, it's not random, it should have one… I'd argue they should include the cheap plain ones like I posted, with the option to upgrade to some slick sealed unit
zdriver_kado: (2013-10-02 00:41:37)
^yes but it's been overlooked often. I had these problems with stance and was sent new top pillow mounts but obviously that was not the cause. If you drive your z really hard or have over 255 width front tires you will find a binding issue develop on the front driver side. This would solve the problem but as G-E says can be done cheap although you would need to inspect them regularly as compared to sealed unit.
michaelp: (2013-10-02 01:53:25)
They arent included in any S13/S14 coilovers I can think of…they're the same setup. There are other things that can be argued that I wont bring up here. Stop trying to bash Powertrix.
Racinjitter: (2013-10-02 02:01:13)
With a pillowball upper mount, it is a free moving bushing. Opposed to a roller bearing.
G-E: (2013-10-02 02:01:40)
Stop being defensive, we aren't bashing anyone, we're talking about powertrix because that's what he got and what charles has a "fix" for
I'm perfectly aware that the majority of coilovers don't come with thrust bearings on the hats, I also know the best ones do, which is why I picked up bearings for my stance kit… I knew about this issue when I got them
michaelp: (2013-10-02 02:06:18)
Except you are. Your wording is horrible. You constantly comment on other peoples/companies products to talk them down, say "it should be this" etc…then get pissed when someone suggests something about your stuff.
G-E: (2013-10-02 02:18:45)
My wording? I'm the only one suggesting cheap fixes… and several people have confirmed this indeed is an issue that exists, even charles, since they obviously have a ready solution for it
What did you do? You told reddzx that it's not important because there's a ton of coilovers that don't have bearings…
- edit* stance's part… also sold separately: http://stance-usa.com/sus/products/h…e/bearing-seat
michaelp: (2013-10-02 02:23:41)
Yes, your wording and bashing saying they should COME with them. Its offered as an upgrade. It doesnt need to COME with them. Its not imporant for him, he doesnt track his car. Its very very unlikely he'll ever have an issue. I used a single drop of lock-tite and its not an issue, and my car gets driven hard and tracked often. You're arguing for the sake of arguing and bashing just to bash. Theres no reason for the bearing setup to be included. At all.
G-E: (2013-10-02 02:33:59)
To quote FortuneAuto:
adamvann3: (2013-10-02 15:41:54)
Bingo. I have never had an issue combines with a nylon thrust washer. Granted I also do coilover maintenance once a year.
michaelp: (2013-10-02 20:01:07)
And Powertrix coilovers are pillowball upper mounts.
G-E: (2013-10-02 23:23:26)
Under compressive tension that pillowball doesn't like to turn… so if it resists turning, it forces the shaft and seals to turn in the strut, including the inverted body seals, which also resists turning… and the spring eventually overloads the friction on the metal washer to spin just enough to relieve it
Or you could be some thrust washers, cheapo nylon like adam, needle like mine, or schnazzy things like charles is offering
reddzx: (2013-10-15 01:18:26)
It looks like the lower mount hole on the rear coilovers are to large for the bolt, am I going to need some kind of adapter like Stance used?
G-E: (2013-10-15 01:41:14)
So they sent you s13 rear sleeves not z31 specific… call powertrix see if that was a mistake or if they just didn't send the bushing inserts
reddzx: (2013-10-17 04:14:17)
The lower mount sleeves were included but fell out of the box when I unpacked. I found them on the floor under the work bench.