Forums/Z31P/z31-performance-upgrade-forums suspension-chassis-and-brakes/Z32/S13/S14 - multi-link rear suspension swap: Difference between revisions
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Here are some pictures comparing the axles of the Q45 with the Z32 N/A: | Here are some pictures comparing the axles of the Q45 with the Z32 N/A: | ||
[ | [https://dev.z31library.com/extras_archive/www.machzracing.com/ https://dev.z31library.com/extras_archive/www.machzracing.com/ … tures.html] | ||
I should also add that the Q45 diff can be put in the Z32 N/A subframe but not the TT. The rear cover bolt spacing is slightly shorter on the Z32 N/A and the Q45. With the Z32 N/A rear you can swap over the Q45 diff, axles, and wheel bearing/wheel hub. | I should also add that the Q45 diff can be put in the Z32 N/A subframe but not the TT. The rear cover bolt spacing is slightly shorter on the Z32 N/A and the Q45. With the Z32 N/A rear you can swap over the Q45 diff, axles, and wheel bearing/wheel hub. | ||
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'''K_Scheeringa:''' <small>(2013-04-04 16:56:14)</small> | '''K_Scheeringa:''' <small>(2013-04-04 16:56:14)</small> | ||
Yep, i had the donor subframe from a q45. so i cut the arms off of it. bolted everything into position in the car and fit the arms to the S13 subframe. to get the correct angle i had to run a spacer above the front mounting points. The angle i chose was to keep the upper arm mounts parallel with the bottom of the car. If you read the discussion here [ | Yep, i had the donor subframe from a q45. so i cut the arms off of it. bolted everything into position in the car and fit the arms to the S13 subframe. to get the correct angle i had to run a spacer above the front mounting points. The angle i chose was to keep the upper arm mounts parallel with the bottom of the car. If you read the discussion here [https://dev.z31library.com/extras_archive/www.nissanroadracing.com/ https://dev.z31library.com/extras_archive/www.nissanroadracing.com/] they have a lengthly discussion on anti-squat. It turns out the S13 set up has a lot more then the s14 set up. so that was how i set it up. This was a link Butter posted in another thread on the conversion process. | ||
This is my set up: | This is my set up: | ||
Latest revision as of 22:29, 16 May 2026
Imported from Z31Performance.com Forums{{#if:Jason84NA2T| — original post by Jason84NA2T}}{{#if:2006-04-27 06:42:30|, posted 2006-04-27 06:42:30}}{{#if:233| · 233 post{{#ifeq:233|1||s}}}}{{#if:/Z31performance_archive/forum/z31-performance-upgrade-forums/suspension-chassis-and-brakes/68-z32-s13-s14-multi-link-rear-suspension-swap.html|
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Jason84NA2T: (2006-04-27 06:42:30)
These are pictures I had that I figured should be shared here.
Ken's swap using a Z32 NA rear suspension. I believe he (or tempastasZ) was one of the first people to do it and post about it:
[archived image: z31rrqtrsmall.jpg]
Butter's S14 5-lug rear suspension:
[archived image: zproject12.jpg]
Ken in AZ: (2006-05-15 07:17:01)
Nope, thats a 1" thick billet aluminum block
and to clarify a few things....this swap was actually pretty cost effective. with a machine shop at my disposal those mounting peices I made were free. The entire rear suspension was from a 92NA 300zx which only cost $400.00, 2 KYP 8-way shocks were $100 a peice, so the total swap-over was less than adding the Nismo LSD to the stock NA rear.
After doing the swap the car really drove quite stiff, the upper shock towers are parallel to the ground where the Z32 shocks actually mount at an angle. I countered this later by adding angled upper shock mounts, which I don't have pics of, but completely made the ride nice.
Just a note the Z32 subframe made the stock NA wheels just touch the inside of the fender, rolling the fender made it ok, but any wider tire/rim combo would result in tires that stick outside the fender lines. I beleive this is why Tempestas and Butter used the S13 rear
BTW those pics were after a crash I had into a ditch, which bent several suspension items, thats why you see the indentation/scrape on the shock in this pic
hope some of this helps
Ken in AZ: (2006-05-15 22:33:15)
The tires actually were perfectly flush with the top of the fenders. the camber gain, although being a multi link, brought them in just enough to clear rolled fenders. I should be technical about it, it should be described as tire tuck as with SLA type suspension geometry actually pulls the tire in a bit
the stock 88NA rear required spacers for the z32NA wheels to fit, I can't remember where they were in relation to the 88 Fenders. If I were you, I'd recomend getting a low cost Z32 na rear subframe and swap on the s13-14 halfshafts and control arms, tempestas did that because his Cobra wheels stuck out like 4-5 inches…it looked really silly :lol:
MachZ: (2006-06-23 16:33:28)
Just a note for another option:
The early Q45 rear end is basically a mix of the Z32 N/A and TT rears. The Q45 uses an R200V with 3.538 gearing but has the TT style 6-bolt output flange. It also has the same sized axles as the TT being 32 spline.
I know for sure the 90-93 is like this and possibly the 94-96. Some models came with HICAS so you'll probably want to avoid those unless you want to try hooking it up.
Definitely a nice option if you're wanting a lower ratio rear with some good strength or simply if the Z32 rears are hard to find (like where I am).
Here are some pictures comparing the axles of the Q45 with the Z32 N/A:
https://dev.z31library.com/extras_archive/www.machzracing.com/ … tures.html
I should also add that the Q45 diff can be put in the Z32 N/A subframe but not the TT. The rear cover bolt spacing is slightly shorter on the Z32 N/A and the Q45. With the Z32 N/A rear you can swap over the Q45 diff, axles, and wheel bearing/wheel hub.
I believe the axle housings will swap but I want to say there was a slight difference. I have both of them laying around and can find the differences. I know that one of the arms of the Q45 suspension is a solid piece of iron instead of the folded steel and I believe the whole housing is iron as well. I believe the Z32 is aluminum but can't remember off hand. Not likely to break the Z32 housing but if you do, the Q45 is definitely a very strong alternative. Probably only needed if doing some extremely high powered drag racing.
The wheel bearing and hub is attached to the Z32 axle housing using the 4 bolts. The Q45 is attached using the same 4 bolts however is held on by a 5th, which is part of the parking brake assembly. There is a nut on back that holds on a piece that keeps one of the springs in and holds the wheel bearing/hub assembly on as well. (took me a while to figure that one out :lol: )
Butter: (2006-07-01 18:19:32)
Here is my write-up on Ziptied. http://www.ziptied.com/forums/index.php?topic=6734.0
I think that's as good as you will see, since a lot of the install is fly by the seat of your pants.
As for the seatbelts in the pic, they are not even bolted in. I now have Buddy Club full bucket seats and the shoulder harness is bolted to the cross beam at the base of the strut towers for now.
MachZ: (2006-07-13 16:39:05)
Just a correction, the Q45 spindle is aluminum like the Z32 spindles. Someone on HybridZ said something about a part of the Q45 setup being iron but I can't seem to find what he's talking about (unless he's working with a newer model than I am).
Anyways… so far everything is swapping right from the Q45 rear to the Z32 N/A rear. Its quite awesome. :lol:
Attached Files
20140701_181845.jpg (85.4 KB)
1404340700131.jpg (88.4 KB)
wilson101: (2006-08-26 02:10:20)
So what is the different between the s14 rear subframe and s13 subframe.Ive heard its the location of where the struts mount.
So the ideal subframe will be one off of a s13 correct?
OK85ZX: (2006-09-07 07:55:33)
I actually wrote a pretty long response to that, but I guess it was erased due to the hacking…
Noone knows for sure whether the S13 is the ideal one to use or not as noone to my knowledge has used it. I've decided on using it as I believe that it will be the best one to use and get the widest tire without making custom strut towers. The S13 suspension isn't as wide as the others, and S13 struts are, as far as I can tell, a perfect height to be able to use them without making the stock strut tower taller to accomodate it.
SATAN: (2006-12-21 01:08:38)
Ok, so butter used the S14 rear, Ken in AZ used the NA z32 rear, nobody has used the s13 rear but OK85zx is working on it.
What about the Z32TT rear with the R230 diff? its a stronger diff. But are the axles stronger as well? meaning all the way out to and including the axle stubs off of a Z32TT?
This just sounds like the best route over all. I could get the 230 diff that comes with strong engough axles to run 9's potentially AND get the multi link rear that would get rid of the super negative camber when launching right?
I'll go over everything again but so far this is what I'm gathering is that nobody has tried the z32tt rear end.
Butter: (2006-12-27 22:33:33)
To Simplify things....
S15-The best IMO. Arms and mounting points on the subframe are updated. Option video "Silvia/180sx Super Tuning" special illistrates this during their build on a S13 silvia Q's when they swap one in. You should be able to find it on YouTube. Will likely require some kind of lower coilover section swap so you can use S13 coilovers. They do come to the U.S. from time to time cause S13 guys like the LSD.
S13-Availible anywhere, usually for free. Certainly nothing wrong with using one and will give you the least amount of trouble during install.
S14-Track is a little wider (20mm?) than S13. I believe some arm mounts were moved during design. Nissan used the higher mounted rear struts, I think, to increase stroke. When you drive an S13 and then drive an S14, the S14 just feels more stable when cornering over dips, etc. probably because of this. Even so, I wouldn't recommend doing what I did. Too much trouble. Again, use the shorter S13 coilovers with an S14 lower section in back.
Z32-Not really a good idea. Track is way too wide and you'll end up with the 911 look or backwards offset wheels. If you want the diff/axles, try fabbing them into one of the other subframes or the stock one.
Putting dem in…
Step 1:Prep. Torch out the Z31 front subframe bushings and remove the center pipe part (for the rest of this write-up, I will call this part "Bob"). On the donor, cut off anything (vibration dampner)forward of the circular part around the front mounts as it will get in the way.
Step 2:Test mount. Put "Bobs" on the car. You need to spend a long time centering the subframe or you will be screwed. To make things easier, it's a good idea to strip down the donor to the basic frame. Place the rear mounts on the car's unibody beam. Measure from ARM MOUNTS to fender lips and the front mounting studs that secure "Bob". A lot of the unibody structure and the diff skews from the centerline, so take care where you are taking your measurements. Clearance the underbody for the arms and front hoop with a hammer and various methods. Get it up in the car as far as you can. You will end up with the nose of the diff pitched up slightly. This is fine.
Step 3:Weld. While everything is held in place, weld supporting members that you fab up out to "Bobs". Remove everything and finish weld. The circular wall around the donor's old mount bushings that you're welding to are not very sturdy, so it's a good idea to torch out the bushings and reinforce in there. Note that "Bob" is solid now. This doesn't really make the ride as harsh as you would think.
Step 4:Make rear mount studs. Drill your holes through the rear floor/beam. You need a piece of pipe long enough to extend almost through it and the subframe mount (get the right schedule to fit tight in the mount). Get a section of threaded rod longer than the pipe (I think I used 9/16 thread). Get a big, thick washer that fits around the pipe. Assemble, and weld the top of the rod, pipe, and washer together. Put the stud assembly in the car and tighten the subframe down with a locknut and washer. Weld the washer portion to the cargo floor. Remove the subframe, and make a penetrating weld for the beam to stud joint. Sweet.
Step 5:Go get custom prop shaft. Measure from tip of output shaft on trans to flange on the diff. Bring in your z shaft and donor's shaft and they should take care of the rest. Result should be brand new prop shaft.
Butter: (2007-02-24 00:43:45)
Subframe my buddy is putting into his M30. He decided to fab up a plate containing the rear studs which will then be welded to the unibody frame member. Note the 2 holes in the middle of the plate for the old diff mount studs to go through, aiding installation. I like it.
You CAN buy the S-chassis mount studs from Nissan. However, depending on your method of install, they may not be long enough.
turbomike: (2007-02-26 10:08:18)
S13 rear end in Z31
I noted from the above that no one had actually tried the full S13 subframe swap so far in a z31.
I spent a day at the local yard and pulled one out of a relatively clean (for Chicago, that is) '93 240.
I'll post up some pics if everything works out OK.
One question: My diff output flanges and sideshafts have a different bolt pattern than the 5-bolt flanges from the Q45 / Z32 noted above. Mine are actually 3 sets of 2 bolts in a triangle pattern. Does anyone know if I can swap out a differential from a Q45 / Z32 and just change the output flanges to fit my axles?
Thanks.
Mike.
Shirodet: (2007-02-28 18:03:47)
Found this writup for the s13 subframe.
http://www.300zxclub.com/showthread.php?t=55042
cheezmonta: (2007-09-01 11:54:54)
This thread has been way to quiet. Here's some info from my endless searching that isn't covered in this thread.
R32
Z32 N/A
S13 (someone have one to measure out?)
Z32 aftermarket control/tension arms (Sport Compact Car pic)
There's a pretty good writeup on 240sxforums.com with plenty of comparison pics for swapping the beefier Q45 R230 differential into the S13/S14 subframe.
http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/showt … p?t=101576
(Copy/pasted from 240sxforums.com)
G-E: (2007-09-17 22:51:22)
seems to be 58-3/8" without the rotors, control arms level with the crossmember, so maybe another 1/8" at normal position, 58-1/2-ish… last I checked the inner part of the rotors were 8mm so lets say almost 60
FlawleZ: (2007-11-05 15:07:04)
[quote]craZed wrote: [quote=phxZ31]
Yes, but the HICAS isn't the only differance. You can eliminate the HICAS and still have the benifit of the r230, the beefier half shafts and the beefier stub axles that the others dont have aside from the q45 SF.
Didn't all Z32's come with the R230 diff? I thought the only difference was gear ratios between the TT and N/A diffs.
Nope the NAs had r200s. You are correct on the different gear ratios, 3.7 for the TT and ~4.1 for the NA.
The TT's had a the R230 3.69 rear end ratio while the NA's had the R200 4.08. Among the differences are the axles, ring gear diameter, the output flanges, some of the subframe mounts…etc.
Gritt: (2008-01-28 01:33:10)
z31 axles will just spin in a q45 vlsd unit. been there, done that. learned that lesson the hard way. something you guys arn`t thinking about is this. s13 subframe, j30 vlsd, q45 aluminum spindles and for the 5 lug, the j30 hub assemblies. bam whamo, almost a perfect setup. you might have to use the j30 rear brakes and if so you lose the better s13/z31 style e-brakes.
my whole thing is getting the center line of the wheel centered in the wheel well while having the subframe empty so you can move it around, all the while rolling around on your back.
SATAN: (2008-03-31 03:32:49)
Dont know if you still have the car or not after this long, but if you do here is what you should hold on to.
Differential, input shafts to the differential, and the half shafts. You will need all of this in order to make a custom set up on your z31. See here. http://z31performance.com/forum/vie … f=3&t=8220
SATAN: (2008-04-06 13:26:44)
WHOA WHOA hold on there. If you are going to swap out to the S13 sub frame then there is no need to swap over the Q45 carrier into the z31 case. The Q45 case bolts right up to the s13 subframe! :yahoo. Well, you have to get the 240sx diff cover but still… Pretty easy stuff if you have the subframe installed already!
As far as the hybrid half shafts go, you wouldn't even need to to hybrid half shafts at that point. Search around on some 240sx stuff. What they do is take two of the same half shafts and put them on the car. Something like the driver side half shaft on both sides or something like that. Like I said you gotta search for it. It shouldn't be to hard to come across though because it has become a very popular swap.
EDIT: Here it is: "300ZX TT Driver Side Axle (installed on driver side of 240SX) and Infiniti Q45 Driver Side Axle (installed on passenger side of 240SX"
Read this, http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=267924
Butter: (2008-04-07 03:44:32)
So yeah…how come nobody is doing this?
I was going to fab up a prototype for a kit for Touge Factory to make the S13 rear subframe a total bolt in affair. Then I realized that nobody would buy it and crushed the car it was going to go on. Here are the super secret blueprints.
TF has an adapter block to adapt S14 subframe to an S13. It's basically a solid chunk of aluminum that replaces the forward rubber bushing.
I was going to take a blank one and drill and tap it so you could install it in the subframe and bolt an extension bracket to it. The rear would just be a box and stud assembly to envelop the frame member of the car (I posted a pic of this earlier). It would be secured in place with through bolts and the stock diff mount studs.
Somebody make them and make billion$$$.
Ford Falcon: (2008-04-07 04:42:04)
Satan,
Doh, you're absolutely right! Thanks for that link too!
Hey Butter,
I'm doing that!! I have been busy with rebuilding the VH45 that will be going in my '88 Z31. The rear will be the S13 sub frame, Q45 diff (with S13 diff cover), Z32TT driver side half shaft, Q45 driver side half shaft.
Warning: dumb question approaching…
What hubs, hub assembly, calipers, etc should I be using with these half shafts? Do I need the hub assembly for the half shaft from the corresponding vehicle, or does the Z32TT / Q45 hubs interchange? Is there a preference?
Butter, if you have fabbed any components to get the 240SX subframe to fit to the Z31, I'd be interested. 8)
Butter: (2008-04-08 21:39:24)
The shafts spline to the hubs and slide in.
http://forums2.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=172393
Keep in mind that if you are doing the Q45 diff along with your swap you just need the propshaft fitted with a Q yoke when you get it made, so no drilling. That should give you drag guys even more incentive to do the subframe swap.
Other Pumpkins that fit S13 subframe....
89-94 240sx OEM VLSD
95-98 240sx VLSD (with S13 diff cover swapped on)
90-96 NA Z32 VLSD (w/ pre 95 J30 axles or 180sx axles)
95+ J30 VLSD (with S13 Diff cover)
Pre 95 J30 VLSD (w/ 95+ J30 axles OR 180sx axles)
180sx VLSD with its own axles or pre 95 J30 axles
The Z31 Clutch LSD carrier should fit in the S13 open pumpkin
Chris86NA2T: (2008-05-01 04:16:01)
ive been becoming more and more interested in this swap after recents posts.. i doubt id be doing this any time soon if i even decide too, but i have some questions that im trying to figure out, so ill post them here with the hopes that someone has the info..
1. Butter, a few posts up you said that the z31 lsd carrier should bolt into the short nose r200 that comes in the s13.. Do you know if the splines are the same? Id like to use a short nose r200 from an s13, install my long nose r200 clutch lsd carrier and have it bolt up to the s13 halfshafts.
2. Did anyone ever get a hat to hat measurement for the s13 subframe? My wheels are pretty much as far out as they can go (17X9, 24mm offset, 275/40 tire). In fact they rub the inner fender in really hard turns. It would be nice to know that the measurment is equal to or smaller than the z31.. You can always space the wheels out a bit if you have to, you cant pull them in.
3. It would be nice to know the measurement from the ground to the bottom of the subframe bushings in an s13 subframe.. meaning take a factory s13, put it on a level surface and measure from the ground to the bushings.. while these numbers would not carry over to the z31 body, the difference between them should remain the same.. for example, if the front bushings were 10 inches off the ground and the rears were 18 inches off the ground then when the subframe is installed in the z31 there should be an 8 inch difference in height.. This would be very helpfull when trying to get the proper up/down angle.
4. Aside from spinning the diff and counting revolutions, is there and easy way to tell which S13's had which gear ratios? This would make junkyard hunting easier.. Im having a real hard time finding this on the web.. I probably just suck at searching.
5. Regarding ride height, how will a straight up s13 swap sit? Butter, i remember you initially having trouble with your car sitting properly and you ended up making taller strut mounts out of huge pipes or something. I think that was with the longer s14 struts, correct? Do you think that stock s13 struts will be close enough that there will be some range of adjustment with off the shelf coilovers?
6. All s13's were 4 lug, correct? some research has shown that its very common to convert to 5 lug. I found these conversion hubs: http://www.jnrmotorsports.biz/ichiba…conversio.html the bolt pattern is not specified at that site, but im sure that with a bit more searching ill find that info.
I think answers to these questions would be helpful to anyone doing this swap. Again, i dont plan on doing this any time soon, but i do find it interesting. If my research yields any answers ill post them, and if anyone has answers please post them as well.
OK85ZX: (2008-05-01 04:54:06)
3. The people who are running the swap are doing it with the mounts flush against the stock z31 mounting surfaces so I don't see this being necessary.
5. Butter used an S14 crossmember with S14 struts, not the S13 equipment. He had to raise the towers because of the longer S14 coilovers, which you can find measurements of the differences in this thread (thanks to bum).
6. The 5 lug swap is very common and yes, I believe the only 240's that had 5lug were the hicas/lsd models.
You should read his build thread over at ziptied if you haven't already.. it will probably answer a couple of these for ya.
Butter: (2008-05-01 05:31:02)
Whoa, I like questions like these. Makes me think something will happen.
5x114.3 There are a few brands and methods out there. New Nissan is pretty close in pricing.
Shirodet: (2008-05-01 05:46:13)
All 240sx (89-98) had 4.08 rear ends, not all of them had a vsld. The only s13 to have a vsld stock is the hicas model (good luck finding one of thoes). In the s14 most se's and some le's had vslds and all s14s with abs have a vsld no matter what the trim level is (se, le, or base).
Butter: (2009-02-06 06:32:58)
No. It would be too much work to weld the S13 piece into the car and have it still be straight and strong, assuming it would even fit. Besides, it's preferable to mod the subframe, not the car. That way you don't cry when you ruin your chassis.
What is the part# for the S13 rear spike things?
Racinjitter: (2009-02-21 01:15:28)
For anti squat the Z32 is the best. Then from best to worst for anti squat; s15, s14, s13, z31. Which all of you draggers can appreciate?
OK85ZX: (2009-02-21 03:26:49)
I haven't been able to find much difference information aside from some untranslated japanese tuner videos that I sort of understood there was a change of angles between them… it seems to cause a measureable difference… however the amount of additional effort/resources involved in swapping in a crossmember from the later years made me decide against it… as most people claim the difference is little more then negligible in a real world situation. Z31 -> S13 should far overshadow any difference between s13/14/15
OK85ZX: (2009-02-23 03:24:13)
So. The major differences are the slightly altered mounting points. Stronger is mentioned as an advantage in a lot of them, however you can be creative and strengthen any of them yourself. You can get slightly better geometry going with the later years, however you lose ease of fitment the wider things get. Going off of people who have already done these swaps, the S13 subframe mounted puts the hubs at almost exactly the same width as the Z31 subframe, so the only thing you have to worry about is making sure your wheels don't hit the coilovers. S13 coilovers also keep roughly the same height as a Z31 shock setup so you don't have to raise the upper mount like those who use the S14 subframe (butter, tempestas, etc) and can keep the stock one taking out alot of fabrication. The wider the subframe is from there, the more problems you start having with wheel fitment (start looking at custom wheels if you want wider than stock), and modifications to make the dampeners fit.
My opinion is still that the S13 would be the best choice for Z31 as I believe the ease of the swap and the lower overall cost is a larger benefit than the small subframe differences. This is only my personal opinion though, so take that for what it's worth [archived image: smile.png]
Also… the shorter distance from hub to hub there is, the more dish you can have [archived image: smile.png]
Butter: (2009-02-23 13:42:01)
Take it as fact. I find that post from Hybridz not too credible. Most s30 owners swap in R33??? Why? Because maybe the first guy to do it used that? He didn't even mention the differences in the the control arm pickup points which effect your roll center and camber change.
The bottom line is that most of the improvements over the S13 get thrown out the window when you put these things into the Z31. Unless you make modifications to the floor aft of the pumpkin (or install it tard style), your subframe will be have a 15* nose up attitude which gives you anti squat but decreases traction.
USE S13.
Butter: (2009-02-26 23:37:12)
I got my full S14 subframe and S14 front suspension with brakes for $200. I put the FLCA's on my S13. I didn't need the brakes and front spindles and sold them for $200, enough to fund 5 lug hubs. I was actually mad that I paid $200. Luck has nothing to do with it, you just have to not be lazy and search internets.
If you can't figure out simple logistics of parting out cars, then maybe this is something you shouldn't try. Worst case scenario, you rent a storage shed which costs @$30/month.
Things you can strip off the subframe and leave at the junkyard.
-Brakes, kinda small for a Z and it's a good time to upgrade to Z32's.
-Upper control arms, upgrade.
-Toe links, upgrade.
-Traction links, upgrade.
-LCA's, upgrade but be aware they are $$$.
-HICAS(if equipped), put eliminator.
Don't leave the 4 lug hubs. You'll leave the bearings behind and they are expensive. If you have a press and know what you're doing, you can reuse them. Most people change the whole assembly and pay twice as much.
Racinjitter: (2009-03-06 00:59:47)
1SickZ: (2009-03-06 02:03:53)
i only ask because there is little diff. in pictures i see..
first thing i see right off the bat is the s13 has the little pieces hanging off the end of the mounts and s14 doesn't.
just wonder if the measurment are the same or maybe a tad diff.
S14:
http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb7/ … C09952.jpg
S13:
http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb7/ … C00010.jpg
the difference of 20mm track isn't much and could be wanted in some apps.. am i dumb to assume u can use s13 coilovers on s14 rear subframe?
Butter: (2009-03-06 02:57:22)
Get the S14 subframe. Use S13 coilovers with S14 lower mounts. You will mant to use s13 coils with any subframe unless you want to kill yourself with strut tower mods. It is a shorter unit.
The S14 uses rubber isolators at the diff, which is what I think you are referring to. I just picked up the new aluminum bushings from Stance last night to replace them. While there, I found out that the Y33 Q45 subframe is nearly identical to S14. This may change the game up a bit as it uses that healthy R230 right, and I suspect it has S13-like track.
1SickZ: (2009-03-06 03:20:39)
the y33 uses a short nosed r200 which bolts in the s13 frame with the use of one 300tt shaft and one 45 shaft. This is what i am doing.
OK85ZX: (2009-03-06 10:01:01)
The only real difference for our application is going to be the track width, since everything else is swappable including the coilovers (like butter said use S13 simple because of the height allowing you to keep the stock shock towers).
Use whatever you can get… if you can have an S14 for cheaper and don't mind the additional width then go for it. S13 is just much closer, if not the same as stock width. Not a huge deal.
Definitely interested in pics of the y33 frankensetup.
1SickZ: (2009-03-07 01:19:08)
went and compared the 2 frame side by side today, the s14 rear mount are 1/2 inch wider. front is nothing to write about. the s13 is a 4 bolt diff s14 is 2 bolt mounting. s14 lca's are a bit longer than the 13's. The traction arm mount on the s14 curves out where 13 is striaght up so by looks s14 looked easier as far as notching our car. That was until I measured and realized its bowed in because its 1/2 inch higher than the 13. The 14's lca mounting is ideal but I went with the 13 frame and instantly picked up mazworkz rear support plate for the diff mounting surface as the torque from the z will prolly shred this thing in half (my buddies sr did so u know the vg will) I got picks of my progress so far not much but the project has offically began. Oh and some might ask me why am I all over it. Well last wed I broke both z stubs at the track first pass and they didn't break at the narrow part either. Time to move on!!!
1SickZ: (2009-03-08 17:43:32)
Measurments are not exact!!
Q45 subframe(used z32 pic)
i went and got all my q45 parts today.. what im curious is can i use all the arms from the q45 on my s13 frame i measured them out to what seems to be identical.. i also purchased the spindlesand hubs as they are the aluminum z32 style units.. and the hub is the 5lug big spline units.
Also if all these arms are interchangable.. like s13 s14 j30 and possibly q45… what i noticed for fitment reasons is that the j30 upper arm curves way out to clear the shocks as i read somewhere someone said the reg. s13 is real close… im babbling cuz im tired and just wanting to get you guys some info. its more drastic that the s13 but with the same mounting points.
1SickZ: (2009-03-17 14:02:52)
S13 required cutting/notching:
the main difference with the s13 from the s14 is lca's mounting location.
Its mounted i just gotta snap some pics. on the other hand i've sourced every other part needed except im still awaiting a shipment from stance.
Rat1314: (2009-05-02 13:30:58)
the best write up you will find is on the first page of this thread. http://www.ziptied.com/forums/index.php?topic=6734.0
OK85ZX: (2009-05-02 23:14:02)
right, between that and this found on the second page of this thread (http://www.300zxclub.com/showthread.php?t=55042)
it wont' be handed to you on any more of a silver platter.
1SickZ: (2009-05-03 11:36:41)
87Kevin;665037 wrote: OK â I havent been here for a while, I have all the pics, so might as well explain what I did. Keep in mind that this was a s13 240sx subframe I used. I used it because the track width is the same as stock (87). I had to modify a few things that I may not have had to if I used a z32 subframe since it is wider. For this reason, Iâd suggest starting with the z32 subframe since it already has the right uprights. You could keep the stock s13 uprights, but youâd be stuck with worse rear brakes than you started with and 4-bolt hubs. The rotors and calipers are smaller. Thatâs why I used the z32 knuckles because the rear brakes are way better than stock. So my setup is:
240sx subframe
240sx arms
240sx springs
300zx knuckles
300zx shocks
solid aluminum subframe bushings
This seems to get me close to stock ride height. I am in the process of switching to s14 rear upper control arms to clear the shock. The s13 arms go around the shock on both sides, and I had to cut a bit of metal away from one side since the shock is leaning rearward more on my car than it would on a stock s13. The s14 arms are one sided and a little longer which should give me more camber adjustment.
So you ask why change the rear subframe? Well - if you do what I did or similar but with a z32 or skyline subframe (all of these are similar designs with similar geometry and interchangeable parts) these are the benefits:
Better rear brakes â similar rotor size, but dual piston aluminum calipers and drum ebrake although I donât know exactly why that itâs better
VLSD â yes I know that vlsd is not that great, but itâs better than open and is upgradable with numerous bolt in aftermarket diffs.
Better geometry â way more anti-squat which is good for road racing and handling. While not the best for drag racing, Iâve found that with my laggy turbo, I get better launches due to less bogging.
Upgradability â almost every arm in this setup has an adjustable aftermarket replacement, not to mention endless coilover and big brake options.
Solid bushings â This is not neccesary, but if you do this, you can think of the whole subframe as a meaty re-inforcement to the ass end of your car since it is now bolted solidly to your unibody. This made my car feel like a totally different car. Easily the best handling mod Iâve done.
OK â so hereâs how I did it:
1 â unbolt brake lines where they go through the little metal tab underneath the car and remove old subframe completely.
2 - fab up some metal plates that look like this:
(see attachments)
mine were 5/16â mild steel and were waterjetted. Buy 4 grade8 ¾â bolts about 4â long. Put them through the holes in the plates and weld the heads onto the plates so they cant turn.
3 â you will have to use a hole-saw slightly larger than the heads of these bolts to cut through the sheet metal on the rear crossmember where the old diff used to mount. You need to cut two holes to make room for the heads of the bolts so the plate can sit flush.
(see attachments)
4 â prep and paint the plates to prevent rust and rip off the undercoating where they weld to the car. An angle grinder with a wire wheel works well for this.
5 â bolt the plates to the new subframe loosely and slide it under the car without the shocks.
6 â using multiple jacks and jackstands or blocks of wood lift the subframe into position.
7 - if you use a 240sx subframe like I did, you will notice that the front mounting point of the lower control arm is preventing you from lifting the subframe all the way up. Notch out the unibody and weld it up like this:
(see attachments)
not sure if the 300zx subframe will eliminate this problem.
8 â now comes the time to break out the measuring tape. Measure every thing 10 times. Measure from the old stock mounting studs, measure from any reliable points under the car to make sure the subframe is centered and straight. You will notice that there is a gap in the center of the rear plate between the old stock plate because the stock c-member is curved. Make a spacer to bolt in between.
9 â once everything is straight and square, weld the plates onto your car. Take your time beacuse you are welding thick plate to thin sheet metal.
(see attachments)
10 â remove subframe and use wax spray to seal where you cant get to and undercoat everything to make it last.
11 â attach your subframe to the new mounting points. To make it sit level, use ½â of spacer on the front mounting points, or even better, use ½â thicker plate in the front than in the rear.
12 â enlarge one of the stock bolt holes for the shocks in the rear until they bolt in.
13 â you will need a custom driveshaft made. You could get the rear yoke that is meant to bolt to the diff you now have, or do what I did and just drill new holes in the diff flange for your 300zx rear yoke. There is plenty of meat there for that, and the bolt holes donât align the drive shaft, the little metal ring does that.
14 â ebrake â either leave it off, make some frankenstien cables, or go to home depot and buy 8â of 1/8â aircraft cable along with 2 u-clamps. Cut the ebrake lines that come out of the drums about 6â out. Clamp one side onto one end of the cable, run it through the loop that comes out of the car and pull it tight as a mofo and clamp the other side on and cut off the extra. This sounds ghetto, but it has worked for me better than the stock ebrake did.
Now just make some new exhaust and you are good to go. I take no responsibility for anything that might happen here â take this info at your own risk.
Butter: (2009-05-03 17:18:55)
Again, do not use a z32 subframe. It's rediculous. Z32 brakes on a 240 sub is a simple upgrade.
I don't see how you can use the stock z31 in this manner since 240sx has a short nose carrier and you need a much longer dshaft. I can't see any of the pics.
ZFast88Z: (2009-07-19 04:44:38)
What did you have to cut off the car that didnt make you happy? I only had to lightly notch in a few places to get my S13 subframe to fit. Im confused as to what your talking about.
1SickZ: (2009-07-19 05:15:33)
Well everything was fine until I got to clearing the "traction" arm mount(the tall one). It needed removal of the brake hose bracket and frame notching and roof clearance. Only thing I hammered in was the floor board to clear the hump in the frame.
ZFast88Z: (2009-09-03 01:39:55)
Completed!
Gusseted S14 Subframe, SPL S13 RUCA's, Traction, and Toe links, S14 RLCA's, S13 Spindles, and 5 Lug hubs. Empty S14 differential and no axles. Still deciding whats the best to do here. Need something strong!!!
Used Butter's idea of an aluminum blank in the subframe and a bracket that bolts to the stock stud and then uses 4 through bolts to bolt to the aluminum blank. I originally threaded the aluminum blank to accept 8 bolts (4 through the top and 4 through the bottom) but was worried about the threading in the aluminum and stressing the blank with the holes. I decided a bolt from the top with self locking nut on the bottom. The rear uses S13 spike thingy using a C bracket that cradles the rear cross beam.
Notching of the frame rails was required. I need to put coilovers and set it at ride height and determine if the SPL arms are going to make any contact. Pic will come, just like the other pictures, when the car is done.
SATAN: (2009-09-03 02:27:22)
You can make a simple extender instead of getting a whole new drive shaft made.
1SickZ: (2009-10-11 16:07:08)
Has anyone else done this with a z32TT knuckle/different bottom rear shock mount? mine is at what looks to be an extreme angle.
also anyone know of part numbers for energy suspension (or similar) bushing's in the knuckle? not looking for arm bushings those will be solid.
Thanks
1SickZ: (2009-10-14 15:00:17)
Kens pic's doesnt show this kind of angle
heres a pic:
[archived image: Shockbushing.jpg]
this might be a difference between the Q knuck;e and the Z knuckle. im not sure.
Ford Falcon: (2010-01-11 03:51:53)
Hey 1SickZ,
I haven't used the Z32TT knuckle yet, although I was going to get a pair to use on my S13 subframe. Still acquiring parts, so haven't considered any other knuckle as I'm doing both the S13 subframe and the Q45/Z32TT half-shaft conversion.
By the way, I haven't done any welding before. What type of welding are you doing to get these plates fixed in place in order to bolt up your subframe?
nismopu: (2010-01-11 06:08:06)
weird question guys but i was wondering if any of you could count the splines on the output shafts of the z32 that go into the r230 diff?
Ford Falcon: (2010-01-11 17:24:26)
SATAN: (2010-01-12 03:24:48)
Should be 31 should it not? I don't think anyone in this thread is using the 230 diff though. 1sickZ is using the Q45's R200.
1SickZ: (2010-01-14 01:04:37)
i didnt go the route with the plates that was someone else. i just simply extended the 240 fram a bit so it can be removed and replaced like factory style.
I'm still trying to find the differences in the q knuckel vs the tt knuckle. they are identical but im not sos ure the angle of the shock bushings is. ill chime in once i get proof.
Ford Falcon: (2010-01-15 01:19:06)
You're right. I was thinking of a thread from the 300zxclub forum. He had fabbed a plate and welded it to the crossbeam. I notice that the point on the beam where the rear mounting point for the S13 subframe isn't level.
I'm curious to find out what would be the better way to secure it, using a 5/16" plate of steel, a 1" block of aluminum (as Ken used), or to box the crossmember.
DMANN: (2010-01-15 22:26:10)
I just extended the front mounts with some bar stock, and the back I used some steel plates up top with some round bar stock through the floor and beam into the solid rear mount with threads on the end to bolt up done and done!
I don't know about the Q45 knuckle but, the s13 and z32 are almost identical except the shock mounts being different style!
1SickZ: (2010-01-16 12:20:43)
I boxed it.
1SickZ: (2010-01-16 12:30:01)
ok the q45 uprights are identical to the z32TT uprights. the only diff is the hicas bushing in the z32arm otherwise the q45 is identical. whats going on here is those of you using the s13 upright with the bolt are just bolting your shock in and the shock moves on the bolt so there is no obvious angle from s13 to Z31 mouting. with the z32 mount you can clearly see the angle required for using the factory z31 mounting the shock. what im going to do to offset this is move my top shock mount forward some to match the lower mount more. the only benefit of these aluminum uprights is about 5 lbs less per side(unsprung).
Ford Falcon: (2010-01-16 23:51:57)
I'm looking for a pair of Z32TT rear knuckles as well. Do you think it's possible to heat up and adjust the mounting points on those so the struts will line up properly? I would imagine it would be expensive to do. Also, are you all using Z32 rear struts with this mod, or has anyone found any others that with work with the mounting point on this knuckle?
1SickZ: (2010-01-17 00:27:56)
I'm not heating and moving it that's for sure!
Pretty sure everyone is using s13 coilovers
and if utilizing the z32 uprights then you would just need z32 lower mounts
on the s13 coilovers
The easiest would be s13 uprights and s13 coilover/shocks.
DMANN: (2010-01-17 00:36:36)
Ahh you just missed a ebay member that sold the knuckles for $20.50.
I believe ken az used a angle metal piece up top to adjust for the angle, but, he was using the z32 subframe.
I have not had a chance to put the z32 knuckles on the Z yet( too much snow to move the car to the shop) and I'm waiting for the z32 rear brakes to come in to finish it up!
Ford Falcon: (2010-01-17 03:03:47)
Coilovers are a li'l expensive for me right now. I'll just go with a pair of basic Tokico rear S13 struts and shocks mounted to Z32 knuckles. It'll be another month before I get underway. Hope to add some of my own pics.
Right now I'm just cleaning out the underbody. Stripping away all the sound deadening rubber and grime, back to the metal, then I'll get all the welding done and prep it right.
Black 89Turbo: (2010-02-04 04:34:03)
I just read this whole thread. Im wondering what the point is to change the subframe? Just for suspension reasons?
OK85ZX: (2010-02-04 04:41:27)
Geometry, among some other smaller pros.
DeleriousZ: (2010-02-04 04:52:59)
Being able to not have -6* of camber when you get to proper ride height, if you're into that sorta thing.
Butter: (2010-02-04 13:41:44)
For the basic reason that the front suspension on our cars is reasonably good, yet the rear is a antiquated, cheap design.
-Multi-link distributes less un-dampened shocks to the chassis. Results in a more comfy ride, especially when upgraded.
-Many aftermarket upgrades fit it and are plentiful.
-Subframe has an extra mounting point.
-Much better alignment. Car no longer looks like dog taking a dump.
-I've never weighed them, but I would guess Z31 is heavier.
Black 89Turbo: (2010-02-04 16:32:46)
I figured it was because theres always so much camber and the fact that theres a wide selection of suspension for the 240's
1SickZ: (2010-02-04 21:25:23)
I did it mainly for the driveline. everything else made it an easier decision.
joeyz31na: (2010-02-17 01:36:21)
So let me get this straight, after getting the actual s13 subframe welded up you will need, a new drive shaft, figure something out for the exhausts and e brake, and s13 springs and shocks if i didint go right to the stance/serial 9 set up? Anything im missing? I have 4 lug currently so i would imagine i could keep the s13 hubs
DMANN: (2010-02-17 12:25:17)
S13 has coilovers, your choice to use either 4/5 lug, and there is nothing you have to weld on the s13 frame you have to box in the places you have to cut out to make the s13 frame clear on the Zed, and yes driveshaft because of the short nose diff!
Butter: (2010-02-18 00:59:17)
You may need a half moon style aftermarket RUCA to clear your suspension. Depending on what you use and how you mount everything, it may rub. You'll probly want to adjust camber anyway when you slam it.
KevinA: (2010-03-30 17:13:41)
[quote]DMANN wrote:
So let me get this straight, after getting the actual s13 subframe welded up you will need, a new drive shaft, figure something out for the exhausts and e brake, and s13 springs and shocks if i didint go right to the stance/serial 9 set up? Anything im missing? I have 4 lug currently so i would imagine i could keep the s13 hubs
S13 has coilovers, your choice to use either 4/5 lug, and there is nothing you have to weld on the s13 frame you have to box in the places you have to cut out to make the s13 frame clear on the Zed, and yes driveshaft because of the short nose diff!
I thought the front mounts on the S13 didn't quite go far enough forward, so you had to make new front mounts on the subframe?
Kevin A
DMANN: (2010-03-30 21:53:20)
Correct, many ways to do it.
Use one of the methods described in this thread or use the imagination!
Ford Falcon: (2010-10-19 06:05:56)
Well, it's been 6 months since we saw any activity on this thread. So this weekend I'm going to get a couple of quotes to get the parts fabricated and the welding work started on my swap. I've got an S13 rear sub-frame, the fuel tank is out, and I'm making sure the areas to be worked on are free of any dirt, and such. I'll be sure to get some photos up here when its done. Finally moving forward on this thing.
adamvann3: (2010-10-19 22:27:10)
Done here with pictures. I know he has the templates of the fabrication used to duplicate.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=23510&start=0
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=22227
ZFast88Z: (2010-10-20 01:27:31)
It can be done without all welding on the chassis.
OK85ZX: (2010-10-20 13:04:27)
I don't like the rear plate idea without welding it to the car. Seems like the plate would have to be really thick to combat the vertical stress put on the section between the z31 diff mount and the s13/s14 mounting holes. I think modifying the rear crossbar to have a bolt or the s13/s14 spike sticking down would be better, as you can tuck the subframe up even further while still not interfering with the mounting of a stock z31 subframe in the future.
sbs z31: (2010-10-20 21:07:45)
welding the rear plate to the beam should be a must, more testing next weekend then i'll get them made for people who want a diy kit! i need adam(adamvann3) to come test my z so he can make a legitimate statement about the whole swap.
badboyz31: (2010-10-20 21:33:56)
my car has a plate welded to the top on the inside and on the bottom in the rear, with a long bolt that runs all the way through. Seems to have worked well and done what it was supposed to do.
OK85ZX: (2010-10-21 02:06:54)
long bolt seems to be the best way imo. Also fortunately the easiest.
Ford Falcon: (2010-10-21 15:43:53)
Nice. Thanks for the links too. So what type of welds are you all doing? (mig, tig, arc?) What's the best for this project? Any preferential metals you're using, or mild steel is good enough? I understand the metal in the cross member where the original differential mounts to it is rather thin, so it would probably need to be reinforced, or maybe just boxed (like some others have done)?
DMANN: (2010-10-23 16:44:10)
I used the mig for most of it! Used big thick washers on top and bottom of rear mount! Works great so far.
The car has a totally different feel, and is much more predictable.
The issue I have is I got D2 Z32 rear coilovers and the spring rate is way too stiff, and can't get a reply from the Distributor if they sell a lower rate of spring for the z32… it is 9kg or 10kg right now.
Anyone know if the s13 springs will fit z32 shocks?
Butter: (2010-10-25 14:58:31)
Just measure what length you want and what rate and call Stance. They will have whatever you need. Most all coilover springs are 2.5" I.D.
Ford Falcon: (2010-10-28 01:43:09)
So what do you all think of this idea…
Rather than having to compensate for the 'C' curve to the existing cross-member, just cut out the bottom, back and front sides to the cross member, then weld in replacement pieces where the bottom mounting piece is flat and sits at the same height (or higher) as the original. That way I could make the S13 sub-frame sit a little higher also.
Would doing something like that weaken that area?
Axel kain: (2010-11-22 01:57:37)
I see it being as simple as : someone with the means making - a bolt in sleeve to mount to the factory spike welded to two plates steel one on the top and one on the bottom to reach back to the subframe - with a holes in them - to (nut and) bolt to the SF. then a drilled plate to bolt to the cross beam above the diff, and thus bolt the subframe to that.
I'd strongly consider making these - IF I had the means to cut and weld up the templates ( still working on getting a welder.)
a bolt in affair being possible would simplify, and ease the potential of these swaps. only thing is that there would need to be separate types for S13/14 etc.
Rick88ss: (2010-11-22 02:36:18)
Do it
joeyz31na: (2010-11-22 04:15:14)
I think with butters all ready going through What he went through with the s14 rear strut tube length, the z32 being such a wide track and s15 being so rare most people would lean towards s13 for sure.
Axel kain: (2010-11-22 05:27:42)
as he said, S14 is a viable option, just run S13 dampers/coilovers. the damper length of the S14's (the higher mount point) is the only difference that gets people confused. whereas the S13 dampers mated to the S13/14(/15) subframe assy, with some kind of LSD dumped in there with some Z32 brakes tossed in for good measure ==== FTMF-WIN.
Ford Falcon: (2010-11-22 07:41:57)
Go for it Axel!
Speaking of S13s, I'm looking for the length of the rear S13 strut in it's normal compressed position (car on ground with wheel on hub), and it's extended position (car raised and wheel off hub). Does anyone have this information?
I need to determine where I'm going to position the upper mounting point of the strut, after I've got the S13 sub-frame in place.
Thanks viewers.
Butter: (2010-11-22 14:15:48)
^Huh? :Oo
And yeah, you can just use S13 coils in the rear with S14 lower mounts to use the S14 subframe. The only reason I did it the way I did is because I had already bought the coilovers from Tanabe. Stance was created the following week. :banghead Even if you make a kit to use the S13 subframe, they make billet adapters to swap S14 subframes into S13's, and you can use those.
DMANN: (2010-11-22 23:37:46)
Unless you are using the Z32 aluminum knuckles you can mount the 240's in the same location as the stock Z31shocks…I used the Z32 knuckles so I made angle pieces to give the shocks a better angle and not bind.
When I just used the stock S13's they didn't bind…I believe just the stock S13 coilover is right around 24 1/2" out of the car lying on the ground.
Axel kain: (2010-11-23 03:01:07)
well the guys that want to toss a S14 frame into a S13 using the adapters have it easy, as the frames nearly line up, just a few inches diff. so the offset blocks work out, we need something to bolt to the frame's factory ( or other installed) bushing sleve (the inner sleve), and have brackets go to a sleeve to be bolted to the Z31 spike.
the center mounts are going to be the actual challenge. this is partially me tossing an idea out to someone who could do it, but once I have my shop setup I'll see about pioneering....
OK85ZX: (2010-11-23 03:42:29)
I'm not too sure, but I think Butter may know a little bit about what it takes to do the swap.
sbs z31: (2010-11-23 03:57:55)
that's pretty much how my setup is, guna change up a few things first then i'll be releasing them!
Axel kain: (2010-11-23 05:05:02)
^ if thats the case.... CARRY ON!
if you need a S14 test fit, I can drop my Z's rear and slide my S14 rear underneath if need be.
ZFast88Z: (2010-11-23 18:28:47)
A bolt in S14 subframe into a Z31?? No way its been done before. :nanan?re
Butter: (2010-11-23 22:23:51)
I'll just put this here again.
ZFast88Z: (2010-11-24 12:06:20)
Thats exactly what we did. However I used through bolts with nuts instead of bolts threaded into the aluminum subframe mount. Having the threads in the aluminum hold up to the stresses in the mount didnt give me a warm fuzzy feeling.
Careless: (2010-11-24 14:54:36)
Questions:
Other than cutting a bit of the body in that region, and mounting the front and rear using a set of brackets/mounts… is there anything else that needs to be addressed.
I just want to see if anyone has a shopping list of things to buy to get prepared so it could be a weekend affair (long weekend, maybe).
1) s14/s13 subframe.
2) adjustable links (makes dialing in suspension easier, in the long run).
3) front bracket/mount adapters
4) rear bracket/mount plate
5) extended driveshaft (anyone have a rough estimation of the length?)
6)… brake lines are ok?
7)… brake calipers not ok?
8]… ebrake cables work?
9)… any other fabricating to use the s14 rear coilovers?
I have an S14 subframe with a 5 lug setup that's only missing the differential and the strut/shocks… I was just curious to know if there's anything else that I should be looking out for or something that wasn't mentioned.
Butter: (2010-11-24 20:30:30)
Get a Q45 diff cover from the junkyard when you install that diff. It bolts on.
I would wait until everything is in the car to measure for your Driveshaft. When I change my trans I'll post up dimensions and part #'s. Everyone does the brakes differently. The S14 brakes are not that great on an S14, so it's a good time to upgrade to Z32 rear.
badboyz31: (2010-11-25 02:48:05)
z32 rears or q45 rears, which is what I have!
250zr: (2010-12-13 00:13:04)
So just a quick Q,
apart from all the available measurements around for all the sub frames, does anyone happen to have the dimensions for the plates that Kevin87 made on 300zx club? (i tried getting in contact with him directly with no luck....Last Activity: 11-02-2007 12:28 PM) This is the way i would like to do it.
[attachment=0:12212tab]plates.jpg[/attachment:12212tab]
anyhow, i have an s15 subframe at home, and both FSM's with all the measurements, i can easily work out the rear section of the sub frame an pin locations due to the corresponding points on both cars with listed measurements. However the front mounts are a mystery to me.
Is anyone able to help me by providing the dimensions for all the plates (as the rear peg location will obviously affect the front) and what subframe they used? as i will need to modify some distances if the subframe used was not S15.
Any and all help would be greatly appreciated (as this is my daily and its already off the road) [archived image: frown.png]
Butter: (2010-12-13 21:41:55)
[http://[video=youtube_share;Xps7WEhDHbI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xps7WEhDHbI&t=2m30s[/video]] [archived image: yt_logo_rgb_light.png]]
RXGhost: (2010-12-22 18:04:05)
well after doing a lot of digging
i can get a complete rear end less diff for the
S-13 $ 200
S-14 $ 700
is the S-14 worth the extra cost for the slightly better geometry?
DMANN: (2010-12-25 03:39:14)
No. Not in a Z31.
bleakdragonmage: (2010-12-25 04:06:09)
Wow… things are expensive there… the last rear end i was going to buy was 80-100$ complete including the diff…
ShamWow: (2010-12-25 04:07:00)
You should be able to get these out of your local pick-n-pull junkyard for $200 or less, complete with diff and everything.
S14 is not worth the added cost in my opinion. Not in a Z31 anyways.
Careless: (2010-12-25 04:16:49)
not worth the added cost in initial price that he's been quoted - or are there more costs included in the grand scheme of things?
OK85ZX: (2010-12-25 06:17:29)
not worth any added cost
Careless: (2010-12-25 06:24:06)
Still kinda doesn't answer the question.
I have an S14 sub frame laying around in my backyard, which is why I am curious to know of any additional cost beyond acquiring the unit itself.
z31t: (2010-12-25 15:37:27)
The s-14 has more width hub to hub. The mounting holes in the rear are slightly different but only slightly. People either stretch the factory bushings to make them fit or there are aftermarkets with the holes slightly offcenter.
Butter: (2010-12-25 16:19:56)
Given the choice for the same price, get the S14.
OK85ZX: (2010-12-25 18:24:53)
All that info is also earlier in this thread [archived image: smile.png] (not specific changes, just talk about geometry etc)
ZFast88Z: (2010-12-26 20:11:52)
Careless,
In discussions with 1SickZ when we were both doing this swap, I had less notching of the body to do then 1SickZ did. Whether this is because I used an S14 subframe vs his S13 subframe, or because I installed SPL arms instead of the arms he used, I'm not entirely sure.
Careless: (2010-12-26 23:16:34)
[quote]ZFast88Z wrote:
Still kinda doesn't answer the question.
I have an S14 sub frame laying around in my backyard, which is why I am curious to know of any additional cost beyond acquiring the unit itself.
Careless,
In discussions with 1SickZ when we were both doing this swap, I had less notching of the body to do then 1SickZ did. Whether this is because I used an S14 subframe vs his S13 subframe, or because I installed SPL arms instead of the arms he used, I'm not entirely sure.
Thank you sir.
Considering my subframe has absolutely everything except for the diff itself (cables, shafts, rotors, brakes, etc…) I should just buy a diff and adjustable links. I have a JDM S14 subframe with the electronic hicas… not sure how it differs, but I think adjustment ability is better if you use an eliminator bar with adjustable rod hicas replacement links… or so I've been told.
Maybe something to do in a year or two. My car can use a lot more work in other areas before I even go that far.
If my rear shocks and springs take a crap, I'll start on this early…
RXGhost: (2010-12-27 07:35:09)
Yeah I have been looking for almost 5 months and the S-14 there is nothing local
the S-13 I can pull out of pick and pull and its $200 for everything
the S-14 I am having to get shipped and some of them wanted almost $1000 for the complete
Careless: (2010-12-28 05:45:28)
check anywhere that has front clips from japan land. they usually get cars shipped with the rear end. you could probably get an s15 rear end with vlsd and everything included for 1000… :-/
Butter: (2011-01-08 21:21:31)
NOTICE:SUBFRAME SWAP DRIVESHAFT INFO!
Here are the parts I've used on driveshafts for the subframe swap. These are part#'s for Powertrain Industries https://www.powertrainindustries.com/catalogs.htm . It should be enough info to steer your local ds shop in the right direction so they can build you a shaft. Here it go.
Slip Yokes
30A: Part#3103-30
71C: Part#3103-24
T-5: Part#3103-26
U-joint
1310 Spicer non-greaseable
Pinion Flange
S14: Part#3102-21
Pretty sure all S-chassis are the same. Compare the measurements of this part and measurements on your diff pinion flange to make sure if it will fit.
PART NUMBER 3102-21
PILOT DIA. 1.967
BOLT CIRCLE DIA. 3.200
BOLT HOLE DIA. .395
FACE TO C/L 1.772
Shaft Length
2-seater: 760mm (measured between C/L of U-joints)
2+2: This should be the above + the difference in the stockers?
Butter: (2011-01-08 21:25:36)
I have a slip yoke for a T-5 if anyone needs one. PM me.
badboyz31: (2011-01-23 05:43:24)
For the guys with the s13, q45, and z32TT hybrid rear ends, I just need to know how long you guy's driveshafts are?
I will soon be swapping the whole rear end set up from Mike D's old car into my Z, and the only thing I need to know is what you guys did about your driveshafts? lengthen? u-joints and pinion flanges?
Careless: (2011-01-23 07:40:55)
Thank you for this.
I'm assuming C/L stands for "Center Line", I.e - center of U-joint bores on the ends of the DS?
ShamWow: (2011-01-23 15:21:14)
See the tape position?
Also note, 760+-Hangover tolerancing.
Careless: (2011-01-23 20:15:12)
as a note for anyone making a custom driveshaft.
Dave @ ShaftMasters wanted measurements from the face of the trans seal to the pinion flange, as the yokes and companion flanges he used were much larger than stock… so those measurements would only work on stock driveshafts, right?
Or....?
Butter: (2011-01-24 02:54:20)
He will most likely use the components I listed. They are pretty much the only aftermarket driveline parts I was able to find for Nissan applications. The 1310 U-joint and all these parts that go with it are much larger than stock.
Compared to stock Z31 and S14…
Careless: (2011-02-16 07:04:13)
exxxxxxxcrement. looks good.
1SickZ: (2011-02-24 19:52:13)
http://www.driveshaftspecialist.com/
awesome driveshaft/price. I'm sure he can pull up the info for my driveshaft i had it built for a 88trans and a Q45flange for the diff. awesome customer service.
DMANN: (2011-02-26 17:28:38)
Since I have this DS.
I'll totally agree to this statement excellent quality all together.
RedDemon: (2011-03-31 22:44:38)
Hey guys, so I've been looking around for an s13 rear end and I found a guy who's selling a full sub-frame minus the shocks for $250. It came out of a 92 s13 which has the vlsd so my question is would it be better to buy the sub-frame off of an open diff equipped s13? Everyone here talks about wanting an open rear end of an s13 and the only think I can make out why is because the KAAZ LSD is cheaper for an open diff 240sx than it is for a VLSD.
DMANN: (2011-04-01 22:19:23)
There is no difference in the 2 subframes.
If you don't want the VLSD, sell it and buy a open diff if you want.
Ahh, your from Canada, good luck trying to find one without a VLSD
ZFast88Z: (2011-04-01 22:38:19)
Yes there is.
DMANN: (2011-04-01 22:46:03)
Care to explain!
ZFast88Z: (2011-04-01 23:05:17)
Link geometry was improved slightly for the S14. At a minimum the toe link is at a different angle.
RedDemon: (2011-04-01 23:14:06)
I'll probably do that, thanks. The guy who's selling it is not too far from you (near Sarnia)
ShamWow: (2011-04-24 06:17:35)
I realize a ton of people out there are using Q45 and Z32 rear brake parts on there S13/S14 rear subframes…Its extremely common. Z32 calipers/ebrake hardware is kind of expensive, and then who knows how your going to get the ebrake cables hooked up.
What I have just realized is that the Z31 caliper/rotor bolts on with a few washers, and you can most likely re-use your factory ebrake cable.
Careless: (2011-04-24 06:23:13)
and aceman runs z32 brake pads in his z31 calipers.... amirite?
adamvann3: (2011-04-26 02:49:12)
For drifto purposes I would just use a hydraulic ebrake. Simple and easy to mount and run a couple of lines to the BMC.
[archived image: 1197922498_2_FT10_p1020527.jpg]
For actual parking brake a line lock similar to the one AZC sold would work great. But as you mentioned mike there are plenty of write-ups and parts available that s13 guys use to retain factory ebrake on z32/Q45/z31.
Jonnytann09: (2011-04-26 05:52:08)
I was looking at one of their weighted shits knobs a few day ago. Great stuff.
RedDemon: (2011-04-26 16:32:27)
I hope for your case you don't get a shit knob.
Wouldn't be too attractive to the female persuasion.
Jonnytann09: (2011-04-27 16:57:49)
[archived image: 1291771159_2_FT6866_dsc00607.jpg]
[archived image: 1291768457_2_FT6866_dsc00588.jpg]
[archived image: 1282184955_2_FT0_p1070247.jpg]
[archived image: 1282184955_2_FT0_p1070243.jpg]
You are talking about these right? :quoi
RXGhost: (2011-04-27 19:02:46)
Have any of you tried the geomaster knuckles with this conversion?
http://www.driftworks.com/shop/suspensi … -hubs.html
not sure how good it will be with only the rear knuckle
Z31'85MT': (2011-04-27 19:45:05)
Hahaha sweet.
adamvann3: (2011-04-28 02:44:12)
[quote]RXGhost wrote: Have any of you tried the geomaster knuckles with this conversion?
http://www.driftworks.com/shop/suspensi … -hubs.html
not sure how good it will be with only the rear knuckle
No but there are ton of s-chassis folks that do. There is a ton of reviews, write ups with results on zilvia
I hope for your case you don't get a shit knob.
Wouldn't be too attractive to the female persuasion.
This is weak compared to what I am running now.
Jonnytann09: (2011-04-28 05:02:29)
You still runnin that same one? Yea it is. :-(
floydfan_90: (2011-06-29 01:51:30)
Any one thinking about doing this should know its really quite easy I did it myself in a weekend.what I really wanted to say was that my factory yoke fit right on the z32 pinion! Sweat right also if you run wheels with an aggressive fwd offset its a perfect fit ( my aftermarket jetta 18's look killer)
pabloqc: (2011-12-28 21:19:18)
Iam About to install that on my car
I have bought Stance kit
S13 subframe
and the last question i have: i want to install Z32 rear caliper and i want to know if axle shaft from s13 work with Z32 rear hub
can i put rear z32 brake and keep the rear s13 spindle
thanks david-alexandre
DMANN: (2011-12-28 22:28:13)
If you use the bearing out of the s13 on the z32 knuckle it will work.
You can use the s14 for the 5 lug.
The axles are different sizes.
z31t: (2011-12-28 22:44:18)
The axles are only different sizes on the twin turbo z32, the non turbo is the same as the s13/s14 spline.
Butter: (2011-12-29 06:19:52)
Z32 Calipers work on S14 for sure. I think I just threw some washers on to space them from the rotor a bit. I want to say that S13 is the same?
pabloqc: (2011-12-29 07:51:37)
well
s13 diff / s13 axle shaft / s13 spindle / z32 NA rear hub (and plate to install drum breake) / z32 na disk / z32 na caliper
do iam ok
EDIT:
if i need to use the z32 spindle i need to find the Stance adaptor for z32 they are different with s13
Careless: (2011-12-29 08:57:23)
they can ship you coil overs with the z32 mounts as far as I remember tfdave mentioning when I asked.
pabloqc: (2011-12-29 09:26:34)
i already have the Stance kit and s13 subframe i just want to put z32 rear caliper on it and want to be sure before ordering to much part
EDIT: i found all my answer
Z31 stance kit came with s13 sleeve (S13 sleeve match with S13 Spindle)
Q45 diff swap = keep S13 Spindle
Z32 rear caliper swap = keep S13 Spindle
To go 5 bolt : swap the Hub(Z32 NA for S13 diff -OR- Z32 TT for Q45 diff) and keep S13 brake
To go 5 bolt + Z32 rear caliper :
-Parts Necessary-
non-turbo Z32 e-brake/splash shield setup
non-turbo Z32 or S14 hubs if doing 5-lug swap
calipers
rotors
e-brake cables (No information found for Z31 at moment)
brake lines (No information found for Z31 at moment)
Q45 diff on S13 :
-Parts list needed-
A.) (Your Model S13 or S14) differential cover
B.) Q45 VLSD differential
C.) Q45 or 300ZX TT Wheel Hubs (great upgrade for the 4-lug guys who have been looking for a reason to go 5-lug)
D.) 300ZX TT Driver Side Axle (installed on driver side of 240SX) and Infiniti Q45 Driver Side Axle (installed on passenger side of 240SX).
source:
Brake Z32 on s13 subframe - http://importnut.net/300zxbrakeswap.htm#5-lug
Q45 diff on s13 subframe - http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/resou … frame.html
DMANN: (2011-12-29 21:33:17)
I believe if you are swaping to the Q45 you will need the bearings out of the TT because the axles are bigger than the NAz32?
I just used the s13 frame, Q45 diff, Z32tt alum. knuckles, bearings and rotors, brakes and Z31 lines everything bolted up.
Watch what year of diff you get, the 90-96 q45 is 6 bolt 3.54, and the 97-? is 5 bolt 3.69, although the input shafts interchange.
pabloqc: (2011-12-29 21:50:41)
the Z32 TT hub is in the list for a Q45 diff swap
Your right
Kennedy: (2011-12-30 06:15:06)
Do you need to modify exhaust for S13 swap?
My plan for year 2050 is to have S13 subframe, S13 diff, Ichiba 5lug conversion with GT-R33 Brembo rear brakes. If i can't find i'll use Z32 rear brake setup.
Z32 rear knuckle would be 7lbs (internet fact. S13 iron and Z32 aluminium) lighter than S13, but then coilover mounting for lower rear needs to be change to Z32 also. S13 is different.
badboyz31: (2012-01-16 00:05:52)
This is the q45, z32tt and s13 rear setup quite simple, and getting swapped into my car as we speak, good thing I bought the rearend all ready to just bolt right up, just need to purchase the coils now, stance here I come!
Butter: (2012-01-16 13:38:22)
Yes.
badboyz31: (2012-01-16 14:11:09)
[quote]Butter wrote:
Do you need to modify exhaust for S13 swap?
Yes.
All the more reason to just dump your exhaust right before the rearend and call it a day!
z31t: (2012-01-16 15:32:12)
Exhaust is much easier to route with the s13 subframe than the z31 subframe.
RXGhost: (2012-01-16 21:34:59)
So true
K_Scheeringa: (2012-02-07 20:35:21)
Q45 suspension option
So I'm going to have access to the rear end out of a 94 Q45.
Unfortunately the car this is coming off of did not come with a rear sway bar, and that Q45 only came with 3 options, no bar, 16mm bar and a 20mm bar. No one makes any after market bars for it.
As I'm led to believe from all the reading i can find on-line, this sub frame is a bit of a combo between the Z32tt and Z32NA frames.
If anyone has a Z32 rear sway bar around that they could measure, could you fill in the measurements shown in the following picture?
This will let me see if a Z32 bar could be used. As all the rest of the suspension linkages are swappable from a Z32, this will allow some available upgrades while swapping into a Z31.
This way i can compare to the mounting points on the sub frame from the car.
Once i get the sub frame I'll post up pictures and measurements for comparison with all the other options.
K_Scheeringa: (2012-02-08 00:39:35)
Got this from a guy on nicoclub.
So now i have a question.. Can the stock shocks/springs from a S13 be used in the swap?
I have a new set of Tokico Illumina's on the front, but my back ones are shot, Iâm wondering if a set of Tokico HP's would work on the back, or a set of HTS's.
My Illumina's are on the lowest setting right now, my car is a summer daily driver. No track or racing, just a fun fast car, thatâs why I was thinking the HPâs.
badboyz31: (2012-02-08 00:50:49)
if your using the z32 or q45 uprights on the car and you wanna run stock rear shocks, you will just need to get z32 rear shocks. This is what I have in mine while I wait for my coilovers! also you don't really have to run a sway bar in the rear, but you can if you just want the added stiffness.
K_Scheeringa: (2012-02-08 01:33:22)
How does the ride hight set up using a Z32 upright?
I'm considering running a rear bar, just to keep things flat, I'm not racing so i'm not trying to set it up perfect.
badboyz31: (2012-02-08 01:53:31)
[quote]K_Scheeringa wrote: How does the ride hight set up using a Z32 upright?
I'm considering running a rear bar, just to keep things flat, I'm not racing so i'm not trying to set it up perfect.
if your using the z32 or q45 uprights on the car and you wanna run stock rear shocks, you will just need to get z32 rear shocks. This is what I have in mine while I wait for my coilovers! also you don't really have to run a sway bar in the rear, but you can if you just want the added stiffness.
with stock z32 shocks and springs in the rear, the ride height is about stock of what the stock z31 suspension is.
K_Scheeringa: (2012-02-08 03:05:29)
Cool, good to know, thats what i'm looking for, and the stock Z32 spring rate is about right?
Good thing is they make Illumina's for it..
G-E: (2012-06-22 20:56:32)
OK now I have a question, at one of my favourite wreckers they have a nice condition Q45 with the 4.1L, I didn't check the date but that makes it the newer one, does anyone know if that one would be a good rear end to get for such a swap?
I remember track width being significantly wider on Q's than s13.... but which one and how much?
Careless: (2012-06-22 21:03:28)
if you're going to steal that Q45 diff at cookstown, im going to murder you. :-(
Racinjitter: (2012-06-22 21:05:25)
The y33 rear end is not the strong one. You want the earlier version (G50?) pre 1997 rear end. The rear suspension is utterly close to the s14.
Rick88ss: (2012-06-22 22:49:55)
[quote]Careless wrote:
OK now I have a question, at one of my favourite wreckers they have a nice condition Q45 with the 4.1L, I didn't check the date but that makes it the newer one, does anyone know if that one would be a good rear end to get for such a swap?
I remember track width being significantly wider on Q's than s13.... but which one and how much?
if you're going to steal that Q45 diff at cookstown, im going to murder you. :-(
Early bird gets the worm. The race is on!
K_Scheeringa: (2012-06-25 15:25:48)
I have one of these sitting on the floor of my shop right now..
They are wider then a Z32 rear end, so will not work too well unless you like that look..
I have the center section out of a S14 that I'm going to use in conjugation with the Q45 arms, diff, uprights and Z32 struts.
The nice thing about the early Q45 rear diffs is they have a VSLD and use the same size axles as the turbo Z32.
As far as i can tell the arms are basically interchangeable between the Z32 and Q45.
G-E: (2012-06-25 19:09:02)
I have a nismo short-nose LSD sitting on a shelf with 5-bolt axle stubs, so in such case the non-vlsd later Q45 diff would work as a shell to swap into or I guess it wouldn't matter which year then…?
How about track width on them, is the early Q narrower/wider than the later Q, has anyone measured ?
K_Scheeringa: (2012-06-26 17:50:39)
I haven't compared between the early and late Q45's, all i know is the 94 and earlier is wider then the Z32 sub frame by a couple of inches hub to hub.. I did measure it at one time but did not record the number. I'll try to remember to get the actual measurements from my 94 Q sub frame tonight..
According to the FSM's track widths are as follows:
94 Q45 - 61.8"
02 Q45 - 61.4"
Z32 NA - 60.4"
Z32 TT - 61.2"
Z31's - 58.1" on Xenon's Z31 page under general specs.
89 S13 - 57.5"
But track width is not really going to help us here unless you know the tire width, wheel width and wheel offset. You cant really calculate the distance from outside tire to outside tire without all this.
For what it's worth: http://ateupwithmotor.com/automotive…finitions.html
I know the later Q's (after 2002) had an open diff and the traction (limited slip) was controlled by the anti lock brakes applying the brakes to the side that was slipping, but on the plus side had a RP ratio of something like 3.13 for those looking for better economy or top speed. The 94 I'm using as my parts car uses the same 3.54 rear end as our early turbo cars, so it's easy to get the speedo pinion to get everything calibrated and have VSLD.
The difference in durability comes form the fact that some came with 2 spider gears (later models) and some came with 4 (earier models). All had an output axle size that is actually the same as the turbo Z32, so heavier then ours..
Careless: (2012-06-26 19:23:33)
but that's for an R230 diff then, right?
shit… 3.13… my car would be a highway monster.
G-E: (2012-06-27 00:37:57)
Nice, perfect, those Q's are wide, guess S13 it is…
K_Scheeringa: (2012-06-27 22:11:05)
yes for the R200 diff..
Here is the dims from a 94 Q45.
Its hard to make out.
Hub to hub 64 3/4"
Small side 28 1/2"
Large Side 46 7/8"
From small side to axle 6 3/4"
Large side to axle 17"
millsaps: (2012-06-28 15:39:47)
so reading through this the s13 or s14 are the best options. i should be buying a z31 here soon and will have stance coilovers from my s13. would the s13 subframe be best because i can get my hands on one for damn near free?
also where can i find just an s13 how to thats well detailed and organized?
badboyz31: (2012-06-28 16:26:09)
what's with all this taking and less swapping, I have been driving on my setup for a little over 2k miles now, get to work guys!!
dampening set at 10 clicks to the stiff side and 12k springs all around is fun for DD driving, why? because race car!!
Butter: (2012-06-28 17:34:26)
S13 is quite adequate.
See page 14/15 of this thread, more info throughout this thread and the one you're on now.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27070
G-E: (2012-07-16 15:57:29)
OK silly mix'n'match question time…
I have nismo clsd with beefy 6-bolt axle stubs, not the 3x2 style like 240sx, I believe it's out of a GT-R…
Would I swap that into a 240sx housing, or the Q45 housing?
And if I swap that into S13 subframe, will I need the Q45/TT axles? What if I use Q45 spindles/hubs which axles then?
K_Scheeringa: (2012-07-16 18:28:57)
To be honest i do not know 100%, but it sounds like you would be looking for a S13 subframe, and use a Q45 housing, and then you would be looking to use a mixture of Q45/TT axles.
Here is the write up from Nico
http://forums.nicoclub.com/install-g…e-t267924.html
need4speed069: (2012-07-28 21:07:09)
G-E Here's what I am planning for my car
1. S14 rear sub frame. (because I have several laying around)
2. Q45 3.54 diff out of 90-96 Q45 VLSD, if you look you will find one with the extra capacity diff cover.
(bolts directly to the S14 sub frame)
3. Lt (drivers side)axel out of the Q45. Used on the Rt (passinger side )
4. Lt (drivers side) axel out of Z32 (300zx) Turbo. Used on the Lt (drivers side)
5. Lt & Rt uprights out of the Q45. You can also use the TT Alum Uprights as well but
You will need the Z32 LWR strut mount as well. This saves you approx 10lbs total.
6. Lt & Rt axel bearings and hubs form the Q45. You can use the TT bearings as well but there are tons of Q45's
in the wrecking yards. You cannot use ths S14 or Z32 (NON)turbo bearings and hubs because here too small.
7. Lt & Rt Q45 backing plates w/parking brakes and parking brake cables. You can the TT parts as well.
8. You can use S14, Q45 or aftermarket control arms. I am going with STANCE S14 Arms/Links/Bushings.
9. Z32 rear brake calipers and rotors or Q45 rear brake calipers and rotors.
(I prefer to upgrage the rear brake hoses w/stainless steel ones)
10. You can redrill the Q45 Diff flange for the stock driveshat rear flange, but since
I am putting a turbo'd LQ4 in my car having a Q45 flange W/1350 ujoints installed on the new driveshaft because
it uses 10mm bolts instead of the 8mm bolts the stock drive shaft uses.
I have done this several times for S14's but if your starting out from scratch, I would go buy a complete
90-96 Q45 rear suspension (less the passinger axel) and buy the S13 or S14 rear sub-frame then just transfer
all the Q45 parts to the S13/S14 subframe install the Q45 Lt axel on the Rt (passinger side) and
install the Z32 TT Lt rear axel on the Lt side and your done.
As a side note install the axels in the bearings before you put the Q45 suspension on the new sub frame
because once all the suspension components are bolted on there isn't room to remove or install the axels
without taking the suspension loose from the sub frame.
If anybody needs some of these parts I have most of them lying around. Or any questions feel free to
text / call me @ 559-408-4189 or email need4speed069@yahoo.com.
badboyz31: (2012-07-28 21:22:03)
you can use either na z32 rear spindles or tt rear spindles, they are the same, also you can use s13 arms, as they are all pretty much the same!
DMANN: (2012-07-31 23:11:20)
I'm confused about the last few sentences of your write up.
Why do you have to put the axles in the bearings before the suspension/ subframe?
I have changed many times over with out ever having to touch the subframe.
G-E: (2012-08-03 08:17:27)
OK so I have verified that the LATER Q45 97+ spindles/hubs have a different spline than the early version, which means it could be a z32na spline, but I haven't had a chance to try any other axles in them to compare
So that begs the question, can we then use the z32na left axle for the later q45 diff swap? That would make the whole mix'n'match easier as TT axles are pretty tough to find.. though if I recall the NA vs TT subframes are different widths, and the r230v might have different offsets on the stubs and/or flange to flange width
DMANN: (2012-08-03 21:57:50)
I know for sure that the 90-97 q45 axle stubs are the same,minus 5-bolt, 6 bolt as for the half shafts the splines on this year are bigger than the n/a's, I actually used the r32 bearings in my spindles.
I still don't see why if you have the q45 5-bolt, bolt the z32na half shafts on there, then use the s13,z32 na bearings and make it work.
I don't know if they are different lengths, Or not?
If you just take the whole s13 subframe and diff it fits in the Z, I still have the s13 half shafts I could get a rough measurement, then you could see the difference on the z32 na lengths?
I know that the s13 axle stubs are different because the vlsd unit in the s13 is on the oppisite side of that on the q45.
RXGhost: (2012-09-05 20:15:51)
Figured i would post this here for anyone that has the s-13, s-14 sub-frame back there
this site helped me a lot when i did my swap because i wanted the better brakes from the z32 in the rear along with the z32 front
http://importnut.net/300zxbrakeswap.htm#compare
zmainiac: (2012-12-07 16:33:56)
I just got a whole z32tt subframe with everything. I also have a bare s13 subframe with nothing on it. Can i just swap all the tt components, control arms, hubs etc on the s13 subframe? I would like the smallest wheel base as i am trying to put the biggest slick under it i can.
MADMIKE: (2012-12-07 22:15:38)
I've never really looked into z32 suspension aftermarket, how does it look compaired to the s13. I would prefer the wider track, but if the z32 has a garbage aftermarket I guess the s13/14 would be the way to go. I take it the q45 is pretty barren overall.
NissanEgg: (2012-12-07 22:26:37)
Z32 has just as much aftermarket support as the S-chassis in the suspension.
Subframe is wider on the Z32, and overall track width from hub to hub is wider. But I think the Z32 control arms are just a bit shorter than the S-chassis versions. So one would assume that Z32 control arms on a S subframe would make for a shorter track, which would be good for super wide slicks and/or low offset wheels. But the real thing is that the 2 versions need to be actually measured and compared before you jump into it blindly.
G-E: (2012-12-07 23:43:50)
r32/z32 links are similar to s13 with hicas, the balljoint and shock mount are are the two major differences…
q45 is similar to s14
Careless: (2013-02-24 19:59:03)
i may have asked this question before.
when i put my new items on my 88T, i want to do the rear subframe swap as well.
can i use a spare of oem s14 spring/shock combos to at least let the car sit on until i put cash down on coil overs?
all i would need to do is buy the upper hats or make some makeshift ones for the time being no?
I want to get the subframe in at least, and have the car roll around.
K_Scheeringa: (2013-02-27 13:19:59)
The issue with the S14 stuff is the height.. they are quite a bit taller then S13 stuff..
If you need i have a set of Z32 struts that you could use, i know the bottom mount is different, but you should be able to figure that out..
I recently started my swap, i just pulled the gas tank last night to have room to mock everything up.
millsaps: (2013-03-25 21:32:09)
any word on the next group buy? or even a single buy picking up my s13 subframe today.
Careless: (2013-03-25 22:07:47)
ok, so can i use S13 stuff? I just need something to keep the car rolling for when I'm away, so if someone needs to move it out into the driveway and move it back into the garage it will be doable.
K_Scheeringa: (2013-03-26 02:54:20)
s13 shocks yes, S14 shocks are way taller..
K_Scheeringa: (2013-04-02 16:21:50)
So here is my install so far..
Butter: (2013-04-04 15:06:08)
Oh my.
Did you use the from mount arms off another subframe and graft them on to make them longer?
I never thought of that. A junkyard probably wouldn't even care to charge you for them if you bought something else.
badboyz31: (2013-04-04 16:30:27)
my only concern with that would be if that weld broke over time, I would take so 1/8" or 1/4" flat steel plate and weld it over the top and bottom to help add some more strength
K_Scheeringa: (2013-04-04 16:56:14)
Yep, i had the donor subframe from a q45. so i cut the arms off of it. bolted everything into position in the car and fit the arms to the S13 subframe. to get the correct angle i had to run a spacer above the front mounting points. The angle i chose was to keep the upper arm mounts parallel with the bottom of the car. If you read the discussion here https://dev.z31library.com/extras_archive/www.nissanroadracing.com/ they have a lengthly discussion on anti-squat. It turns out the S13 set up has a lot more then the s14 set up. so that was how i set it up. This was a link Butter posted in another thread on the conversion process.
This is my set up:
S13 subframe
Q45 diff w/VLSD and 3.45 gears
Q45 arms
Q45 brakes
Q45 uprights
Z32 struts
I just got pricing for a local shop to make up my drive shaft and they wanted $575 plus taxes. Ouch.. Time to keep looking.
stufferton: (2013-04-04 18:38:58)
So poking through the first few pages of that link, Anti-squat is basically a similar concept to gearing? Where I mean the human mind tends to want to think that a larger number will gain you a greater top speed, which is the opposite as to what it does (short gears=greater top speed, tall gears=lower top speed). More anti-squat, puts more of the traction to the tires/ground, but has visibly less movement of the rearend, and less anti-squat will result in more squat and less power put to the ground and more through the suspension? Correct me if im wrong but this is what Ive gathered.
Butter: (2013-04-04 18:45:59)
Either the Q45 has a $200 companion flange, or that DS shop sucks.
badboyz31: (2013-04-05 00:40:43)
shit thats way expensive, I have the same exact rear end setup and my drive shaft only cost me $275 with taxes, I also have all SPL arms in the rear and stance coils all around with the z32 rear lower mounts.
Also just to let you know I would not run the lower aluminum rear control arms unless you are going to have the lower shock mount cut off and rewelded, because you will have extreme bind and it will rip the poly, spherical, or oem bushing right out, ask me how I know.
something like so
K_Scheeringa: (2013-04-05 02:15:07)
I'm not sure on the cost of each part as they did not tell me, but looking at https://www.powertrainindustries.com/catalogs_series.htm?series=Nissan I think they where using 3102-69 flange yoke and I think 3103-30 tranny yoke with 1310 U joints and of course balancing the shaft.. I’m running a NA Z32 tranny and the Q45 diff.
I was figuring somewhere between $250 and $400, but that was a little out there. At first if they where going to be re-machining my yokes they wanted almost $800. I almost fell over when they told me that..
This place does a lot of heavy duty truck parts and was recommended to me by a race chassis shop, so I don't doubt it would be quality, but man.
I got another name for a shop to try, I’ll be stopping by there tomorrow..
I am running the aluminum uprights, I was thinking of slightly tweaking the bottom legs of the struts to line things up..
badboyz31: (2013-04-05 02:59:45)
yea tweaking the legs would deff probably be the easiest most cost effective way, also as for the drive shaft just get a lengthened z31 shaft with the z31 flange and just drill holes in the q45 flange, there is more than enough space to do so, I have mine done that way as my driveline shop could not order me the q45 flange, I have been DD and racing with the rear for about a year now and its all holding up fantastic.
as for your driveshaft contact these guys www.[Bdriveshaftspecialist].com they deff should be able to get you a q45 flange and it would be cheaper to have made and shipped to you most likely
88NA2t300zx: (2013-04-08 14:35:43)
Ohh come on now…just cut the little angle piece like i said…it has to be easier than cutting and welding the knuckle…lol
TooSlow: (2013-04-24 03:17:15)
Hello. Can anybody tell me a dimensions of that plate for rear part of s13 subframe? I've picked up one subframe yesterday, and now looking for how to start. Dimensions of the rear plate would be nice start.
adamvann3: (2013-04-25 17:58:55)
Its proprietary information however being in europe I am sure you could email either of the 2 people that sell them and I am sure they may help you out.
New2Zs: (2013-04-30 15:41:21)
If I were to do the s13 rear subframe swap would I need different rear coilovers or could I use the Stance set for the Z31?
Butter: (2013-04-30 17:22:59)
Uses the same kit without the spacer for the lower mount.
New2Zs: (2013-05-01 08:00:52)
Thanks
KevinA: (2013-07-29 17:45:20)
What size Swaybars are you guys running? I've started welding mine together, and i need to buy a swaybar.
84Zed31: (2014-10-22 17:02:18)
Would I be able to use any s14 ruca with the s13 suspension? Main reason because ive seen the spl and stance arms and they look like perfect half circles where as megan and battle version has more of a kink look. Would they all clear our coils?
G-E: (2014-11-07 21:27:12)
The s14 arms are all longer, some by 5mm, some by more like 15mm…
Butter: (2014-11-14 19:21:53)
what size swaybars are you guys running? I've started welding mine together, and i need to buy a swaybar.
Largus
84Zed31: (2015-02-21 04:59:50)
What have you guys done to run the brake lines? My S13 subframe didn't come with the brake lines attached. Did you use the stock Z31 lines and attach it to the new subframe?
This might have been covered somewhere in this thread but I couldn't find it.
amreboot: (2015-02-21 05:25:27)
What have you guys done to run the brake lines? My S13 subframe didn't come with the brake lines attached. Did you use the stock Z31 lines and attach it to the new subframe?
This might have been covered somewhere in this thread but I couldn't find it.
I made a point to grab the s13 line because I wanted to swap to it being shorter and less complex than the funky z31 setup.
When I was installing the subframe, I just bent the z31 brake lines out of the way so that I wouldn't deal with them being disconnect and dripping.
Come to find out that the brake lines used on the z31 are poly armour lines which are bendable without creasing the metal.
So I ended up using them, bending them roughly to the location that I wanted. From there, I used a SS braided line to the caliper.
Make sense?
84Zed31: (2015-02-21 05:36:07)
I made a point to grab the s13 line because I wanted to swap to it being shorter and less complex than the funky z31 setup.
When I was installing the subframe, I just bent the z31 brake lines out of the way so that I wouldn't deal with them being disconnect and dripping.
Come to find out that the brake lines used on the z31 are poly armour lines which are bendable without creasing the metal.
So I ended up using them, bending them roughly to the location that I wanted. From there, I used a SS braided line to the caliper.
Make sense?
Yes it does make sense, thank you. In this case I could use my rubber lines to the Z32 calipers for the time being until I pick up the Goodridge SS set.
amreboot: (2015-02-21 05:54:13)
I forgot to mention that I removed the hard lines that clips onto the z31 LCAs along with the rubber line that that connects them.
So to be clear for everyone else, you are using just hard lines that come out of the rear brake line splitter, then a rubber or SS line to the caliper, that's it.
adamvann3: (2015-02-24 01:19:35)
I forgot to mention that I removed the hard lines that clips onto the z31 LCAs along with the rubber line that that connects them.
So to be clear for everyone else, you are using just hard lines that come out of the rear brake line splitter, then a rubber or SS line to the caliper, that's it.
Exactly what I did. Pretty straight forward, s13 rear SS brake lines worked perfect from the z31 rear brake line splitter on each side.
84Zed31: (2015-02-28 04:05:34)
Thanks Adam, you already answered my next question. Lol. So I should be able to use the S13 -> Z32 conversion lines for my Z32 rear calipers.
amreboot: (2015-02-28 04:32:31)
Thanks Adam, you already answered my next question. Lol. So I should be able to use the S13 -> Z32 conversion lines for my Z32 rear calipers.
Yes sir!
N|co87: (2015-06-02 17:46:17)
Can i use my stock 88t vented discs and calipers on s13 subframe with 5-bolt hub mod? Is there needed any modifications?
G-E: (2015-06-02 19:13:23)
No because the s13 has a drum parking brake, you need to start with a z32 rotor, and while you could use z31 vented rear calipers, you'd probably be better off spending the extra for z32/r32 ones.
Butter: (2015-06-13 02:53:48)
s13 has a drum parking brake
Wrong.
G-E: (2015-06-13 05:28:46)
Yea sorry, I keep forgetting people retrofit them, not standard…
adamvann3: (2015-07-01 16:13:51)
With Mr Tickles was a PITA for so long I never really enjoyed driving it as I was more tuned into the issues rather than enjoying it. Well now that suspension and driveline ironed out I have been able to put some consistent and enjoyable miles on it.
With that said, I recently picked up my Shiro from winter storage. The rear trailing arm has the V1 Gary camber mods and adjusters installed with poly everything. The car is low with the camber dialed back to -2.5 degrees. Toe is off at max adjustment with 0.25" toe in, and caster -- whatevs. When this car was finished, low and dialed in it seemed like the bee's knees.
Now driving a car with a multilink rear, I see it was just a skewed vision of what I wanted the car to be. While the stiffer suspension is awesome and keeps the car flat and predictable when cornering there has been compromises. Most notable are the (1) rear end wandering which is mainly attributed to the toe in, (2) lack of suspension extension. #2 is going to be attributed to being low and camber correction the poly bushing in the lower control arms will bind up causing a 'drop out feeling' when going over road those elevated road bumps/cracks since the suspension cannot fully extend to damper. I have tried adjusting every setting within the coilovers; new springs, dampers max soft vs max stiff. I thought it was part of the compromise for z31 coilovers but now having a setup to compare I know better is possible.
Short Story - Multilink setup allows for large amounts of low with infinite adjustment with all the aftermarket parts available. There is no compromises in ride quality or performance.
Rear trailing arm with coilovers are still an upgrade over OEM but there are compromises being made without adjustments
G-E: (2015-07-01 21:29:07)
I'm eager to hear what you'd think about a properly done up car with my trailing arm kit…
adamvann3: (2015-07-01 22:44:50)
I'm eager to hear what you'd think about a properly done up car with my trailing arm kit…
Are you providing a car or one for comparison? My assumption it would fix the toe and extension issues.
Its been a learning experience over this past decade. But with each project or build everything has progressively improved and sets a new standard to be improved upon.
G-E: (2015-07-02 01:54:12)
Also that many times the subframe swaps feel so tight because of the conversion from bushings to rodends, the trailing arm kits remove some of the bushings as well, and if you used solid subframe bushings there too, you'd have a more apples to apples comparison…
The kits are moving slowly but they are moving, I expect it won't be long before one is driving around your area [archived image: smile.png]
adamvann3: (2015-07-02 14:50:37)
Well that person had an unfortunate run in with a wall, so it will probably be a bit.
DudeZX: (2015-07-05 00:59:46)
I'm wrapping up my swap and need my hand held on putting together a parking brake system. I have z32 2 seater cables and have worked out an adapter to use the stock handle, but as far as routing the cables I'm at a loss. I'm afraid they are going to interfere with the driveshaft. Anyone mind sharing their setup?
adamvann3: (2015-07-07 19:45:08)
I'm wrapping up my swap and need my hand held on putting together a parking brake system. I have z32 2 seater cables and have worked out an adapter to use the stock handle, but as far as routing the cables I'm at a loss. I'm afraid they are going to interfere with the driveshaft. Anyone mind sharing their setup?
Shoot me your email. I have top secret files